21st Century Bullet seater press

[BenPerfected]

Started using the Century 21 bullet seating press today. The 6BR brass all had been turned with a .0011 wall thickness but it has not been sorted by #times fired. Today the goal was to practice and get familiar with the press. After about 20 practice loads without a primer or powder, it was time to try some loads. I started with a light lube and just twisting the bullet between my finger and thumb and then setting it bullet on the case. The case was sized with a body die w/expander and then followed by the neck die. Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 PSI and the other 20% was between 30-50 PSI.
My question is....how would you sort the loaded rounds the get the best accuracy? Every, 10 PSI, 30 PSI....what matters?
Ben

(correction PSI not lbs)

 

[CatShooter]

Started using the Century 21 bullet seating press today. The 6BR brass all had been turned with a .0011 wall thickness but it has not been sorted by #times fired. Today the goal was to practice and get familiar with the press. After about 20 practice loads withot a primer or powder, it was time to try some loads. I started with a light lube and just twisting the bullet between my finger and thumb and then setting it bullet on the case. The case was sized with a body die w/expander and then followed by the neck die. Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 lbs and the other 20% was between 30-50 lbs.
My question is....how would you sort the loaded rounds the get the best accuracy? Every, 10 lbs, 30 lbs....what matters?
Ben

Ben...

I know the gauge is marked in PSI, but often a gauge will read something else because the leverage or machanical advantage is in effect - is there any mention in the documents about how the numbers relate to actual force on the bullet.

I ask this because I use mostly Redding and Forster comp seaters, and the spring force is maybe 10-ish actual pounds, and I can slightly feel the bullet when it seats, so the force to actually push the bullet in the neck might be 15 to 20 pounds.

So I am wondering if it is actually 60 to 90 pounds of force, or are those numbers relative?

 

[michaelnel]

is there any mention in the documents about how the numbers relate to actual force on the bullet.

"documentation"? On a 21st Century product? Haha! I just received one of these hydraulic bullet seaters, and the documentation consists of a business card from 21st Century.

 

[Immike]

Started using the Century 21 bullet seating press today. The 6BR brass all had been turned with a .0011 wall thickness but it has not been sorted by #times fired. Today the goal was to practice and get familiar with the press. After about 20 practice loads withot a primer or powder, it was time to try some loads. I started with a light lube and just twisting the bullet between my finger and thumb and then setting it bullet on the case. The case was sized with a body die w/expander and then followed by the neck die. Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 lbs and the other 20% was between 30-50 lbs.
My question is....how would you sort the loaded rounds the get the best accuracy? Every, 10 lbs, 30 lbs....what matters?
Ben

Hi Ben, I just have one season of experience with the press but have learned that the annealing every firing is a big help to keep seating pressures closer together. I'm turning brass now and I'm really being carefull to make it perfect. I sorted my boxes in 10 psi lots last year and hope to bring that down even further this year literally to just 1-2 psi. It's teaching me. Best of luck with your shooting!

 

[BenPerfected]

Started using the Century 21 bullet seating press today. The 6BR brass all had been turned with a .0011 wall thickness but it has not been sorted by #times fired. Today the goal was to practice and get familiar with the press. After about 20 practice loads withot a primer or powder, it was time to try some loads. I started with a light lube and just twisting the bullet between my finger and thumb and then setting it bullet on the case. The case was sized with a body die w/expander and then followed by the neck die. Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 lbs and the other 20% was between 30-50 lbs.
My question is....how would you sort the loaded rounds the get the best accuracy? Every, 10 lbs, 30 lbs....what matters?
Ben

o

Ben...

I know the gauge is marked in PSI, but often a gauge will read something else because the leverage or machanical advantage is in effect - is there any mention in the documents about how the numbers relate to actual force on the bullet.

I ask this because I use mostly Redding and Forster comp seaters, and the spring force is maybe 10-ish actual pounds, and I can slightly feel the bullet when it seats, so the force to actually push the bullet in the neck might be 15 to 20 pounds.

So I am wondering if it is actually 60 to 90 pounds of force, or are those numbers relative?

Cat,
The gauge is in PSI. The recommendation is to use the Wilson seater and the seating process is very smooth and consistant. There is a 100 yd indoor range close by and I will shoot some groups this week at different seatiing pressures. If you don't hear back from me....it makes a really big difference 😀 I hope it is more measureable that weighing brass....
Ben

 

[Danattherock]

is there any mention in the documents about how the numbers relate to actual force on the bullet.

"documentation"? On a 21st Century product? Haha! I just received one of these hydraulic bullet seaters, and the documentation consists of a business card from 21st Century.

No kidding. Just got a 21st century concentricity gauge. And a business card. Ha ha. Did find some instructions on the web site. And John is very responsive to emails as I saw this weekend. And it's a bad azz tool. So, guess it's all good. But unusual for a $250 gauge to lack any kind of instructions. Did I mention it is bad azz?




Dan

 

[dkhunt14]

I do not believe you will see much at 100 yards. It will show up a lot more at long distance. Matt

 

[jsthntn247]

90lbs to seat a bullet is insanely hard. You might want to figure out what's causing that.

 

[21shooter]

Hi You guys,
Instructions: Take it out of the box and ready to use. Nothing to Assemble.

This Tool is to gather Info- Data.
It will help find the actual neck tension, the neck wall thickness difference hardness of the brass.

As for me telling you what PSI is the best? ??? That is for the user to decide with the Data received from the range, using the tool.

My particular setup likes 46lbx.-54lbs. To hold this tolerance all variables, must be held to a minimum.
Neck wall thickness + - .0001 (i.e.) proper brass hardness bullet diameter.
Hope this helps, John

 

[BenPerfected]

Did some testing with seating pressure using the 21st Century seating pressure gauge. All 32 shots were @ 100 yds. outdoors shooting the same load with the only variable being the seating pressure between 5-80 PSI. I then shot a 12 shot group at 30 PSI of which 11 were reasonably consistent. At this point, all that was left were 4 rounds @ 40 PSI. If valid. this test says that seating pressure significantly changes the POI. If not valid, it was fun!

 

[jlow]

I do not believe you will see much at 100 yards. It will show up a lot more at long distance. Matt

Matt is right on. At 100 yards, even significant differences in MV will not show up since you are still shooting in the relatively flat part of the curve. What will show up at 100 yards is differences or inconsistencies in MV if you neck tension is all over the place.

Actual seating force is of little relevance unless they are very low or very high. What you are looking for is consistent seating force from one round to another. Ideally, the seating is so smooth that you cannot get a value....

 

[fguffey]

This Tool is to gather Info- Data.
It will help find the actual neck tension, the neck wall thickness difference hardness of the brass.

I understand interference fit, I understand crush fit. There are not many tools I do not have. The one thing I do not have and can not find is a conversion for tensions to pounds.

Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 PSI and the other 20% was between 30-50 PSI.

Before the 21 Century seating tool a reloader could determine the effort required to seat a bullet. All that was required was a bathroom scale. I guess if a reloader wanted to validate the accuracy of the 21 Century tool they could use a bathroom scale. When pulling bullets the reloader could use a spring type scale.

Seating bullets, I made a bullet seater, it does not have a die body. It allows bullets to be seated effortlessly. I am thinking the 21 Century tool could have more to do with the seating die used than the amount of bullet hold the case has.

F. Guffey

How many tensions in a pound?

 

[JamesnTN]

To stray off track just a bit.

As it's been discussed the press with force attachment is only as accurate as you are in being consistent on seating the bullet..
With that being said, what about if someone could design a press with a friction handle? Set the friction as so if the handle slips and doesn't seat the bullet then the force is too great and pull that for time being and keep loading and sorting the loaded rounds based on the friction of the handle. If set correctly and you find a sweet spot for long range accuracy, the loaded rounds will seat fully and those that don't we cull those that had too much resistance or we fix the brass at what ever means it takes (within reason) and make it compliant to our working match loads. Would a press built in this nature solve some of the inconsistency of pulling the handle and create more consistent loaded rounds?

I'm just thinking outside the box on this.....

 

[zipollini]

A micro torque wrench for a handle. Seems simple.

 

[jlow]

Before the 21 Century seating tool a reloader could determine the effort required to seat a bullet. All that was required was a bathroom scale.

Not true, the K&M Arbor Press with force measurement has been around for years.... That is what most of use. It is just as good and cheaper.

http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/arbor-press/arbor-press-with-force-measurement-option.html

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Force vs PSI on John's press is easy to figure out.

Put a postal scale in the press and give it a squeeze.

Mine comes off of 0 PSI at 15 lbs showing on the scale. From there, it seems pretty linear and correlates well to 1PSI =1lb of force.

So, 30 PSI = 45 lbs of force.

To answer the OP question, I sort to 1 PSI and shoot the cases in order by seating pressure. My idea, not yet proven, is that I can help control not the ES, but the resultant elevation changes at long range by minimizing the spread from one shot to the immediate next one.

 

[mikecr]

It should be reminded that seating force and tension are different. Seating force can correlate to tension in a relative manner, but there is no reason for it to be directly proportional. Without a plan it could indicate inversely proportional(as with various annealed) or mean nothing at all(due to abnormal friction).

Currently there is no tool available to measure neck tension.
Seating force is just way easier to measure. But don't take more from it than actually provided.

 

[JamesnTN]

It should be reminded that seating force and tension are different. Seating force can correlate to tension in a relative manner, but there is no reason for it to be directly proportional. Without a plan it could indicate inversely proportional(as with various annealed) or mean nothing at all(due to abnormal friction).

Currently there is no tool available to measure neck tension.
Seating force is just way easier to measure. But don't take more from it than actually provided.

To my understanding the more force it takes to seat a bullet the more tension is going to be on the bullet. Now if it takes 20# to seat the bullet that doesn't mean the bullet is held with 20# of pressure. Basically by measuring seating force we are trying to equalize our loaded rounds so they become more consistent. What ever method is used as long as the same method is applied equally to each cartridge is as good as we can get. The tools such as force measurement presses only aids in equalizing this method.

 

[BenPerfected]

Started using the Century 21 bullet seating press today. The 6BR brass all had been turned with a .0011 wall thickness but it has not been sorted by #times fired. Today the goal was to practice and get familiar with the press. After about 20 practice loads withot a primer or powder, it was time to try some loads. I started with a light lube and just twisting the bullet between my finger and thumb and then setting it bullet on the case. The case was sized with a body die w/expander and then followed by the neck die. Of the loaded 33 rounds, 80% registered between 60-90 lbs and the other 20% was between 30-50 lbs.
My question is....how would you sort the loaded rounds the get the best accuracy? Every, 10 lbs, 30 lbs....what matters?
Ben

Ben...

I know the gauge is marked in PSI, but often a gauge will read something else because the leverage or machanical advantage is in effect - is there any mention in the documents about how the numbers relate to actual force on the bullet.

I ask this because I use mostly Redding and Forster comp seaters, and the spring force is maybe 10-ish actual pounds, and I can slightly feel the bullet when it seats, so the force to actually push the bullet in the neck might be 15 to 20 pounds.

So I am wondering if it is actually 60 to 90 pounds of force, or are those numbers relative?

Cat,
My thought is the markings on the gauge are just for reference. I haven't tried any other measuring device but this tool along with the Wilson seater seems to work very well. This first test seemed to indicate that the POI moved significantly at a spread of only 10 PSI...whatever that means on this gauge. What this may be saying is that it is probably ok if your seating pressure is 5-10 PSI, 15-20, 30-35, etc. This initial test indicates that it is likely not ok to mix ammo with significantly varying seating pressures. My guess if your case preparation, annealing, age of the brass, bullet diameters, etc were all identical there wouldn't be a need to measure seating pressure. More shooting tomorrow on seating depths with my rounds sorted in 5 PSI groups. Sun and light winds in TX tomorrow...this is fun!

 

[Patch700]

A question for those that use this press...

If you size a case .002 down from loaded dimension it's relatively safe to say you have .002" "Neck tension" .

Now having said that , would you say that if you sized your neck .010" down from loaded dimension you'd have .010" neck tension?? I don't believe that to be possible. I certainly don't dispute that the initial force required to seat a bullet .010 larger than its neck ID would indeed be much greater than one with only a difference of .002" and that would certainly show up with some gauge , but at what point would the grip change.

In other words , if you were to take a case that had an ID of .243" and ran it up onto a .264" mandrel that there would be .021" of tension gripping that mandrel?

Where I am going with this is when a person is using a gauge of sorts to measure the amount of force required to seat a bullet do you think that once the initial force is overcome that the numbers are relevant , and to what degree.

I do see where a gauge set up such as this could weed out the ones that required very little resistance to seating and could possibly bring to light either a neck thickness problem or an annealing problem , but what would the higher numbers really mean once the bullet is seated.