195g Berger hybrid .284 caliber

[barefooter56]

SheldonN,
The OAL of the new 7mm 195 is 1.648. The OAL FOR THE 7MM 180 HYBRID is 1.529 so, on average the 195 is .119 longer than the 180 as we know that actual tip to base bullet measurements can vary from lot to lot. IF you have a Remington OR Winchester long action rifle . Wyatts Outdoor Custom Rifles ( on the web) does offer an "express" length magazine box that can be fitted into your stock by a gunsmith ( they list those too) that gives and extra .110 (on average) in magazine length.

 

[Sheldon N]

Thanks Phil!

 

[Danny1788]

SheldonN,
The OAL of the new 7mm 195 is 1.648. The OAL FOR THE 7MM 180 HYBRID is 1.529 so, on average the 195 is .119 longer than the 180 as we know that actual tip to base bullet measurements can vary from lot to lot. IF you have a Remington OR Winchester long action rifle . Wyatts Outdoor Custom Rifles ( on the web) does offer an "express" length magazine box that can be fitted into your stock by a gunsmith ( they list those too) that gives and extra .110 (on average) in magazine length.

This is the 3rd different length ive seen posted, I saw 1.620", 1.637" and now 1.648"

 

[Quest-QC]

thanks Mr Hoham

 

[Lbart]

LBart,
what is the overall lenght of the 195gr bullet ? How does the dimensions (bearing wall) compare to a 180gr Scenar L ?
Is the thin jacket will affect precision, or either blowout in a Bisley style type of F-Class match ?
thanks sir
Jonathan Laître

Jonathan,
As Phil pointed out the OAL of bullets will vary with the lot. I don’t have any 180 gr Senar L so I can’t compare them.

Anytime you use a thin jacket bullet for target shooting you increase the chance of a blow-up. I believe in distant years past the Canadian team had a problem with bullets disappearing with ill effects.

I had one blow up in a 6.5-284, don’t care to repeat the experience. I went to moly coating until thicker jackets came out. BTW this phenomenon can happen with any brand bullet, thick or thin under the wrong conditions. I understand is harder to make great bullets out of thicker jackets but not impossible. I have used nothing but for at least 10 years.

 

[Quest-QC]

thanks Larry, i understand your point that "thin jacket" bullet restriction are common with all makers, not specific to Berger at all.

what would be the effective "conditions" to shoot those thin bullets in F-Class purpose rifle ? It was mentionned that 5R can help, a long barrel is not proper (what lenght?), we now include the bullet coating, anything else ?

This is very good information, thanks for sharing.

 

[Laurie]

Eric Stecker of Berger wrote a long post on this issue at the time of the bullet failure peaking some years back which I read on the US Palma Teams Long-Range Forums. There is likely something similar somewhere or other on this forum too I should think.

The gist of the report was that Berger had tried very hard to manufacture a set of circumstances that would induce bullet failure, but no matter what they tried it simply never happened for them. Even after speaking to customers who'd had failures, cause / causes were and still are suppositions rather than proven facts.

Obviously speed in the barrel, pressure behind the bullet base, rifling twist rate / bullet rotational speed are all factors as well as the jacket thickness. Bullet design pays a part too as long bearing surface models generate more friction and heat in the barrel.

However, there are lots of other potential factors some of which are specific to individual rifles, particularly barrel and chamber throat wear, bore condition affected by the metal surface finish turned out by the barrel making shop, temperatures reached inside the barrel, fouling build-up and its nature.

Ambient temperature appeared to play a considerable role as reports of barrel blow-ups were less common from shooting on cool days than on very hot ones.

The conclusion reached was that bullet blow-up needed a very considerable number of factors to be in play and interracting - there is no simple formula that says that when an X-calibre bullet reaches Y fps velocity and rotate at Z rpm it'll fail.

The primary conclusion that Berger did reach was that with the thin-jacket designs that were in use at the time, certain competition shooters under some rare conditions did suffer occasional bullet failures - ie it was real not a firing line myth. Even though it seemed to need some very unusual combinations of circumstances to occur, the company reckoned this was unacceptable to its own engineering and business ethos as well any effects on customers who had a problem - so it put a 'fix' in, in this case thicker jackets and I imagine there were more than a few worries that this common-sense solution wouldn't cure the problems - but it obviously did. It must have not only given Berger a great deal of work, but it has also commited the company to an expensive two product line situation as the Hunting version needed to retain the original thin jackets to work on game.

I wonder how many companies would have denied there was a problem for as long as they could then blamed it on the customers for running hot, dirty, and worn-out barrels?

 

[bsumoba]

For the guys who shot these bullets for testing (Larry, Danny, etc), were these groups using sorted bullets?

 

[Lbart]

For the guys who shot these bullets for testing (Larry, Danny, etc), were these groups using sorted bullets?

Bryan,
I shot mine right out of the box. I don’t know about Danny. The 3rd Team tester (I posted his electronic targets) wrote me…. “When I first received these bullet's I weighed and used the Bob Green comparator to sort them and I ended up with just one pile so all I have done is loaded them right out of the box. “

 

[bsumoba]

For the guys who shot these bullets for testing (Larry, Danny, etc), were these groups using sorted bullets?

Bryan,
I shot mine right out of the box. I don’t know about Danny. The 3rd Team tester (I posted his electronic targets) wrote me…. “When I first received these bullet's I weighed and used the Bob Green comparator to sort them and I ended up with just one pile so all I have done is loaded them right out of the box. “

Larry, I am sure we all appreciate your candidness and your wealth of knowledge. I will certainly make sure when I see you at FCN, to introduce myself.

 

[Elwood]

Million dollar question, will Danny and Larry be using these in competition in preference to the 180 gr Hyrbrids?


Ian.

 

[1KBR]

OK, so how long until we get these 195s in a thick jacket version?

 

[Lbart]

Ian,
Since you think is is a million dollar question, give me a million dollars and I'll answer the question

 

[dannyjbiggs]

For the guys who shot these bullets for testing (Larry, Danny, etc), were these groups using sorted bullets?

I tested Lot #0000. After "weight" sorting and "bearing surface" sorting 300 bullets, I threw them all back in together and shot them out of the box! All weighed within a range of 194.5 - 195.5, and the bearing surfaces were predominately within +/- .002. The meplates were square. I would say that they were the most perfect batch of bullets that Berger ever made.

I tested using a 1-8.5 twist barrel short range (200 yds) at 600 feet elevation and long range (1000 yds) at 1,000 feet elevation. I'm not giving my 180's away yet. I plan to give the 195's a good wring out after my 1-8.25 twist barrel arrives.

Dan

 

[Lbart]

Ian,
Seriously, like Dan I will not be giving up my 180’s anytime soon. I too have some faster twist Bartlein barrels coming soon and will wring the 195’s out a bit more before making a final decision. It may come down to which shoots the best groups in my barrels.

No idea when a a thicker jacket version will be made.

 

[Elwood]

Ian,
Since you think is is a million dollar question, give me a million dollars and I'll answer the question

Darn it, I didn't think that one through,

Larry and Danny, thank you for your answers.

 

[lawrence97]

Not too sure Larry or Danny need to rely on this new bullet to stay competitive. I'm sure they can smoke us using some sierras or nosler hunting bullets!

They have been at the top before all these advances in bullets. Their skills at the reloading bench and behind the rifle, wind reading and years of competitive shooting is what I would try to match before a new bullet.

 

[Quest-QC]

thanks Laurie for taking the time to explain, it help taking the good decisions ;D

I also agree that we are please to have Berger always looking to provide better products for us, they are just awesome ! I've shot thousandssssssss of them in the past years and the only reason i went for the blue box was because of availability...which wont happen for the next season, yellow box are already on the way.

 

[FURMAN]

I am very interested in any info anyone has on shooting these. I have a 7mm-300 win mag with .203 FB almost complete. I throated it for 180 hybrids but would love to try these. I just hate to waste valuable barrel life.

 

[Sheldon N]

Looks like Midway is clearing the shelves of the Berger 180's to make room for the 195's.

$0.33/ea for the 180 Hybrids and $0.28/ea for the 180 VLD Target (only 3 boxes left).

I think I could shoot the 180 hybrids for a while at that price... the 195's can wait.