$10k rifle... but homemade target with Sharpie scribbles

[DShortt]

I can't help myself but to look at the way structures are put together. Some of the problems are due to setting but a lot is just sloppy construction and finish work.

My comments are mostly for anyone reading this thread who hasn't taken rifle cant and the associated problems into account. Based on the comments in this thread there are many who haven't.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I can't help myself but to look at the way structures are put together. Some of the problems are due to setting but a lot is just sloppy construction and finish work.

My comments are mostly for anyone reading this thread who hasn't taken rifle cant and the associated problems into account. Based on the comments in this thread there are many who haven't.

Lemme ask, so nobody else has to, if youre shooting at a fixed range like at a BR match, who cares if the target is mounted at a 30deg angle, your scope is rolled to where the crosshairs are an X, and your gun is 1/4” high on one side in the rest? We dial to impacts while group shooting so cant doesnt make any difference

 

[DShortt]

Lemme ask, so nobody else has to, if youre shooting at a fixed range like at a BR match, who cares if the target is mounted at a 30deg angle, your scope is rolled to where the crosshairs are an X, and your gun is 1/4” high on one side in the rest? We dial to impacts while group shooting so cant doesnt make any difference

You're missing my point.

If you are aiming a a dot on a piece of cardboard and can not discern if you are inducing rifle cant. Then your POI is say 1" right and 2" high from your POA which is not at all unusual given targets I've seen posted here and elsewhere. Any cant you input to the rifle is going to be magnified.

Now. If your POI and POA are only separated by 1/4" as in your example then the effect will be minimal. Also in your example you are using the scope crosshairs to verify the angle of cant is consistent. But that's not what most people are doing based on the targets I see posted.

How can you monitor rifle cant with the scope crosshairs if you are using a scribbled dot or a solid colored dot?

Hopefully this clarifies what I'm describing.

 

[6MMsteve]

People are funny. I like the ones that bring me a $200 Savage axis and want me to put a 3k Nightforce on it so they can shoot 1000 yards.

Ha I got a bunch of those

 

[6MMsteve]

I started shooting in 82 with a buddy he had a washing machine we shot at, sighted rifles in then we went GH hunting, and killed many pigs with a 22250 and 220 swift with unertls from 200 to 645 yds, we didn't have issues hitting pigs with washing machine zero's..the rifles got sighted and was good for a yrs

 

[ACard]

The point is, it's pretty difficult to evaluate the POA vs POI effect of load development and tuning if your POA is inconsistent due to uneven scribbled circle aiming points. Spend all that effort and money on gear and loading, then burn yourself on the target used to evaluate your gear. In the pic, the shooter spent at least $15 in components on 15 shots fired, but didn't bother to spend 5c on a printed target or heaven forbid purchase a $1 target etc.

I prefer to use small circle stickers myself but at least that way I have consistent POA for evaluation of my loads and dope.

I dont disagree on any level, thats why comments should leave the vitriol behind and focus on educating those that have not learned these lessons the expensive way. The propensity for people (not aimed at you by any means) to hide behind the keyboards and make snide remarks insinuating the cost of someone's equipment vs. their proficiency is absolutely appalling. How about as an alternative we as a community strive to educate them and increase the level of enjoyment and satisfaction of those that have not been at it for decades and hopefully increase the number of sporting shooters to help safeguard the future of our sport?

 

[DShortt]

I dont disagree on any level, thats why comments should leave the vitriol behind and focus on educating those that have not learned these lessons the expensive way. The propensity for people (not aimed at you by any means) to hide behind the keyboards and make snide remarks insinuating the cost of someone's equipment vs. their proficiency is absolutely appalling. How about as an alternative we as a community strive to educate them and increase the level of enjoyment and satisfaction of those that have not been at it for decades and hopefully increase the number of sporting shooters to help safeguard the future of our sport?

Targets don't have to be expensive. Someone could take that same sharpie and draw a pair of crosshairs using the side of a cereal box and it's a vast improvement over a scribbled circle.

It's not what the target is made of or how it's made. It's weather it helps or hinders your success that matters.

 

[DShortt]

I started shooting in 82 with a buddy he had a washing machine we shot at, sighted rifles in then we went GH hunting, and killed many pigs with a 22250 and 220 swift with unertls from 200 to 645 yds, we didn't have issues hitting pigs with washing machine zero's..the rifles got sighted and was good for a yrs

If you adjust the POA to match the POI then yes, this matters very little.

How many people do you know who during load development or testing with 5 different hand loads adjust the scope so POA and POI match for all 5 loads? Usually the POI shifts with every load and sometimes substantially.

If the shooter is trying to evaluate a load and a couple of tenths really matter then this stuff matters.

THAT is what I'm describing.

 

[ACard]

Targets don't have to be expensive. Someone could take that same sharpie and draw a pair of crosshairs using the side of a cereal box and it's a vast improvement over a scribbled circle.

It's not what the target is made of or how it's made. It's weather it helps or hinders your success that matters.

Agreed

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Lemme ask, so nobody else has to, if youre shooting at a fixed range like at a BR match, who cares if the target is mounted at a 30deg angle, your scope is rolled to where the crosshairs are an X, and your gun is 1/4” high on one side in the rest? We dial to impacts while group shooting so cant doesnt make any difference

Have to disagree there.
A canted target is not a big deal if you know your scope and rifle is level so it tracks properly but a canted scope would make dialing to impacts quite difficult. If my reticle is in the shape of an X and I'm hitting 1 moa left and I dial 1 moa right to get on center, I'm not gonna be anywhere close to where I wanna be. Gonna have to play with dialing elevation and windage just to go right or left. Same difference for elevation corrections. So to me a level scope is very important no matter what type of shooting a person is doing. Nothing more frustrating wasting ammo and time having to shoot excessive rounds to get on zero POI because a scope isn't tracking exactly where you expect.

Now if only using a rest top to adjust windage and elevation and only using holdovers or kentucky windage to hit where you want then it wouldn't matter much but it's not hard to level a scope so I don't see the reason not to do it.

 

[DShortt]

Have to disagree. That would make dialing to impacts quite difficult. If my reticle is in the shape of an X and I'm hitting 1 moa left and I dial 1 moa right to get on center, I'm not gonna be anywhere close to where I wanna be. Gonna have to play with dialing elevation and windage just to go right or left. So to me a level scope is very important no matter what type of shooting a person is doing. Nothing more frustrating wasting ammo and time having to shoot excessive rounds to get on zero POI because a scope isn't tracking exactly where you expect.

If your scope is leveled with the rifle when it was mounted the tracking will be consistent *if* both the target and the rifle are canted to match. 30° in Dusty's example.

You have to think about this for awhile. No one talks about it but I encourage you to test in on targets at 100 yds at least and see what happens. It's something that matters more than I ever thought.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

If your scope is leveled with the rifle when it was mounted the tracking will be consistent *if* both the target and the rifle are canted to match. 30° in Dusty's example.

You have to think about this for awhile. No one talks about it but I encourage you to test in on targets at at least 100 yds and see what happens. It's something that matters more than I ever thought.

I see. Thought he was suggesting the scope wasn't leveled. Don't know why a person would go thru that trouble tho. If your reticle and rifle is level on the rest, you judge impact adjustments based on your reticle on the target. No need to match them up. Being that BR targets are circular and not in the shape of a crosshair, it makes even less sense to be discussing this. Level the scope and rifle, hold center of reticle on center of target and adjust to the impact on target. Then how the target is oriented does not matter

 

[DShortt]

I see. Thought he was suggesting the scope wasn't leveled. Don't know why a person would go thru that trouble tho. If your reticle and rifle is level on the rest, you judge impact adjustments based on your reticle on the target. No need to match them up. BR targets are circular, not in the shape of a crosshair

That's true *if* your POA and POI are matched. What gets weird is when they are apart by a couple of inches but the shooter is disregarding that because they don't want to shoot out their POA for load development. So who cares if the POI is off quite a bit, right?

That's all well and good *if* you are monitoring rifle cant by one method or another. If you aren't then even a small inconsistency gets multiplied and can easily amount to a 10th or 2 when you measure the group size.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Have to disagree there.
A canted target is not a big deal if you know your scope and rifle is level so it tracks properly but a canted scope would make dialing to impacts quite difficult. If my reticle is in the shape of an X and I'm hitting 1 moa left and I dial 1 moa right to get on center, I'm not gonna be anywhere close to where I wanna be. Gonna have to play with dialing elevation and windage just to go right or left. Same difference for elevation corrections. So to me a level scope is very important no matter what type of shooting a person is doing. Nothing more frustrating wasting ammo and time having to shoot excessive rounds to get on zero POI because a scope isn't tracking exactly where you expect.

Now if only using a rest top to adjust windage and elevation and only using holdovers or kentucky windage to hit where you want then it wouldn't matter much but it's not hard to level a scope so I don't see the reason not to do it.

Nobody in br says ill put in 1.5moa left, they crank the scope to the impact. Matter of fact before side focus scopes, most people rolled their scope 90deg to the left so their turret was easy to get to. Nobody dialed the windage turret thinking it was going to move left or right because as they looked thru the scope and cranked it the crosshairs moved up and down. And to even cause more confusion, br shooters dont even want their impacts to be at the crosshairs because the first shot takes out your aiming point.

 

[Brians356]

unless you are color blind like me!

orange is useless!

So an orange dot on a white backer appears white on white and is invisible to you?
-

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Nobody in br says ill put in 1.5moa left, they crank the scope to the impact. Matter of fact before side focus scopes, most people rolled their scope 90deg to the left so their turret was easy to get to. Nobody dialed the windage turret thinking it was going to move left or right because as they looked thru the scope and cranked it the crosshairs moved up and down. And to even cause more confusion, br shooters dont even want their impacts to be at the crosshairs because the first shot takes out your aiming point.

Yeah I don't like my impacts centered on my reticle when shooting paper for the same reason. But this thread was never about BR shooting and optics have come a long way since the scopes of old so I guess it's all a moot point. Nowadays maybe only 1% of the shooting world competes in BR and that number seems to be dropping every year. A large portion of the remaining 99% of shooters use their turrets for adjustments and will likely do so long into the future

 

[rayporter]

i still roll my p dog scopes 90* so i can get to the dials. i even have reticles built with the windage knob put on top and the elevation knob on the left side