Do you want the score you actually shot…or the score the E-target says you shot?

[JFrank]

At the 2025 IBS 1000 yard nationals, the top ten LG finishers were so close that any error in scoring or measuring would likely cause a considerable amount of concern.

 

[swd]

So some guys won’t shoot e targets and some guys won’t shoot pulled targets. And at least one guy won’t go to a match anymore because no one is good enough to shoot against but still complains anyways..

I guess I’m just in the minority that just wants to go shoot a match, pulled or e and accepts the advantages and disadvantages of both. And if your not shooting perfect 10 and X count your shooting against yourself anyways…

 

[ISS]

323,

do you want somebody to pull yours?

 

[323]

323,

do you want somebody to pull yours?

Why would you assume I want somebody to pull targets for me?? I’m a pro at pulling targets. Earned my pit pulling badge at camp perry.

 

[charlie b]

I've never competed at long range but I did pull pit duty on military ranges (and, yes, I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night ). Why can't the center of an E target be removed after each series? Take it to the scoring room and let someone compare paper to computer.

Seems that e targets do allow a lot of ranges without pits the ability to hold matches. Also give decent enough feedback to the shooter in real time. Yes, missed shots, but, pulled targets get misses/mistakes as well.

To me there isn't a way to get rid of all the issues.

 

[Krogen]

I've never competed at long range but I did pull pit duty on military ranges (and, yes, I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night ). Why can't the center of an E target be removed after each series? Take it to the scoring room and let someone compare paper to computer.

Seems that e targets do allow a lot of ranges without pits the ability to hold matches. Also give decent enough feedback to the shooter in real time. Yes, missed shots, but, pulled targets get misses/mistakes as well.

To me there isn't a way to get rid of all the issues.

It hinges on the calibration of the e-target. How closely does it match the paper? Other than errant readings, there are two calibration issues that complicate your suggestion.

First, the size of the group electronically vs. paper might not be the same. You get a bigger group one way than the other. If so, that's a defect that needs to be corrected in the calibration. Which do you go with for scoring? Yeah, that's a bucket o' worms.

Next is the centering of the group. It may be offset on the e-target. You may or may not consider that a problem. We >purposely< offset the e-target results by 1 MOA. You're drilling tiny groups, all X's on the e-target, but the holes in paper are a tiny group 1 MOA low. Why do such a thing? It keeps from destroying the visual aiming point - the X. Assuming no Shotmarker errors, you still get your score or group size, but it's 1 MOA low on paper. Your group size is the same, but your paper score sure isn't. Not a problem during a match, but people sighting in on e-targets to use a rifle for other targets (gongs, game etc.) are often confused that their actual shots are 1 MOA low of what the Shotmarker reports.

If the approach is to use both e-target and single use repair centers for groups/scores, then careful calibration and removal of the 1 MOA offset would be critical.

 

[323]

I've never competed at long range but I did pull pit duty on military ranges (and, yes, I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night ). Why can't the center of an E target be removed after each series? Take it to the scoring room and let someone compare paper to computer.

Seems that e targets do allow a lot of ranges without pits the ability to hold matches. Also give decent enough feedback to the shooter in real time. Yes, missed shots, but, pulled targets get misses/mistakes as well.

To me there isn't a way to get rid of all the issues.

Our lone 1k range with pits we have limited access to is at Fort Greely, AK near Delta Jct which is 5-6 hours from us. If anyone been to Delta Jct there is nothing there. You are correct when you say clubs can now hold matches at ranges that normally couldn’t hold matches because of no pits.

 

[Northridge]

At the 2025 IBS 1000 yard nationals, the top ten LG finishers were so close that any error in scoring or measuring would likely cause a considerable amount of concern.

That’s why it’s so critical to proof the groups in multiple directions to be as thorough as possible.. slow and steady wins the race out of a scoring shack…

Shawn Williams

 

[Evan]

This dead horse seems to be pulled out of the shed somewhat regularly to be beaten a little more, although this time feels less thoroughly executed, despite all the axe grinding.

I would argue that if we are really serious about accuracy, then live pits need to stop and the target needs to be mounted solid to a frame set in concrete for benchrest and probably F-class too. I see a lot more >590-50x scores and 1000-yard benchrest is certainly there with more and more <2-inch groups being shot right down the center with 50-5x happening more and more. The target frames for live pits wiggle and move in the wind and when the podium is decided by 0.00x” differences in group, the fact that the target wiggles is changing podium positions. But we already make this concession to accuracy for friendliness. Live pits during sighters gives shooters better feedback and helps new shooters get on target before record starts. A metal plate beside the target has a higher barrier of skill, particularly if it’s rained and there is no splash to walk on to the plate. So-called “competitors” don’t care. They probably sent their first sighter into a 9 or 8 ring at worst and are ready to go after sighter 2 or 3 with the barrel fouled-in,warm and stable. As we go down this road, we increase the difficulty for the match directors and the crew that help them and we drive away beginners by providing less support at the entry point into the sport.

 

[JFrank]

Even though the live pit target backers are able to move up and down, they do get pinned during a record string.
Personally I’ve not seen enough viable movement to change the outcome of a group.
I wouldn’t know how a guy could even test such a thing at 1000 yards.
On the other hand, sun going behind a cloud or a tickle of unaccounted wind has changed a few outcomes.

Jim

 

[Evan]

Even though the live pit target backers are able to move up and down, they do get pinned during a record string.
Personally I’ve not seen enough viable movement to change the outcome of a group.
I wouldn’t know how a guy could even test such a thing at 1000 yards.
On the other hand, sun going behind a cloud or a tickle of unaccounted wind has changed a few outcomes.

Jim

I don’t recall playing with the target backers/frame in their raised position too much at Deep Creek, but I would be surprised if a push in the corner didn’t result in some amount of rotation or movement on the big single posts they are mounted to. In one of these threads from the past I did the math for the CRC target backers (mounted at the bottom to a pair of posts) blowing forward and back in a head tail wind would result in the center of the target moving up and down some ~0.100” as it swung through its arc.

 

[Tempest]

After some of the pit service we have had over the years, I'll choose E targets!

 

[Liven The Dream]

Please I am retired Pop Corn costs $$.
A pulled target can move .
A E Target tied down very small movement.
You shoot your sighting shots , adjust for center .
You keep adjusting for center ?
What is the difference?
Your doing the same thing ?
Is the target puller marking your Target correctly?
Is the E Target recording in your favor?
I still want a Model T Ford with crank stater !
Can’t trust that electric stuff just saying

 

[Rick300]

My vote is for E targets, nobody here is getting in younger. Pulling targets consumes a lot of time in matches in which people are winning peanuts/bragging rights. If first and second place wins are in the thousands or 10 thousands then people should have a clean target and either pull manually or check paper, otherwise I think e-targets are close enough and probably gives you more liners than not. Also, people likely lose more points due to shooting in different relays. I’ve been in relay 4 with switch winds when 1st relay had no wind. I’ve also been in matches that people have had 2 1st morning relays when others not, that is way more unfair than worrying about your E target as there is generally less wind early morning. So shoot and have fun, do your best to not be a whiner, be thankful you can afford the travel, afford the rifle, and the expensive rest and ammo as almost no one is getting rich shooting in this

I think you nailed it

 

[Olddog2]

Judging by the dispersion of the shots, I would hazard a guess the two systems are not calibrated the same. Regardless, electronic targets are here to stay, and Shotmarker is the market leader. Remember too, that a good percentage of F Class shooters are of an age that pulling pits is a deal breaker, and we really can't afford to lose shooters

 

[cb186]

Shotmarkers/E-targets are a compromise. Trade the convenience of not pulling targets vs accepting some discrepancies compared to actually results on paper.
Can see not using them for benchrest records, but sling/fclass, they are great.

 

[FTR_Mojo]

I'm a big fan of e-targets.

I think most of the issues with accuracy come from not taking the time to really calibrate them properly and build decent frames etc. The ones I have setup and been OCD about getting it dialed in perfectly have been incredibly accurate, even at long range.

Having strong cross winds will always be a bit of a compromise with the acoustic mics, but so be it. Its doesn't make a huge difference, and everyone is in the same boat.

The one thing that does annoy me is when two people next to each other shoot at exactly the same time and both shots dont register properly. It causes unnecessary issues at comps. I think I read that theres new mics that fix that. But I dont know for sure.

 

[swd]

I'm a big fan of e-targets.

I think most of the issues with accuracy come from not taking the time to really calibrate them properly and build decent frames etc. The ones I have setup and been OCD about getting it dialed in perfectly have been incredibly accurate, even at long range.

Having strong cross winds will always be a bit of a compromise with the acoustic mics, but so be it. Its doesn't make a huge difference, and everyone is in the same boat.

The one thing that does annoy me is when two people next to each other shoot at exactly the same time and both shots dont register properly. It causes unnecessary issues at comps. I think I read that theres new mics that fix that. But I dont know for sure.

We’re going to try putting side fences on the targets to block the sound from the adjacent shot/target and see if that helps. Might or might not help but easy enough to try.

 

[Albany Mountain]

Brian Blake, welcome to the club. They all hate me too, but are we wrong? It's a yes/no question to the others.

Saw that there were a number of E-target National Records set this week in Florida. At these annual Florida matches over recent years, they have set more National Records than at any other range in the U.S. Don't know why these same shooters haven't done the same on paper targets elsewhere. Don't blame the shooters, blame the system.

If you weren’t there, how would you know what th conditions were?

 

[Jeff Porter]

We’re going to try putting side fences on the targets to block the sound from the adjacent shot/target and see if that helps. Might or might not help but easy enough to try.

Some users asked Adam about this and he indicated it would need to be several feet long out in front of the target to “possibly” have an impact. Let us know how it works