rwj
Gold $$ Contributor
Understood… but even the “participants” want their efforts to be accurately represented. Here’s to hoping that the electronic systems will continue to be refined and obtain a performance level acceptable to all.
Do you want the score you actually shot…or the score the E-target says you shot?
- Thread starter Ahhnother8
- Start date
gmr4
Silver $$ Contributor
This test is very much flawed. Different results should be expected doing the test this way….. you are slamming a product after doing a pitiful test….
Ahhnother8
Gold $$ Contributor
That is sad and I'm almost there too. Our local matches have been migrating towards e-targets. Their #1 goal for the matches now - to finish early. And finishing early has become a competition in and of itself, to the detriment of everything else. It is BIZARRE, but here we are.
We have discussed it many times and have also come to the conclusion that mid-pack competitors LOVE them and will defend them to the death, regardless of accuracy. A few points here or there for them makes no difference in their situation. Those of us who expect to have an opportunity to win at EVERY single match understand that the computer has the final say in who wins. No Thanks!!
323
Silver $$ Contributor
That’s a pretty flawed take. Next month, Texas is hosting a major match featuring some of the best shooters in the world, and they’ll be using E-type targets. If elite competitors are using them, your claim that they're only for 'mid-pack' shooters doesn't hold up. It sounds like you might be frustrated after a tough match and ran a biased test just to justify your score.
I believe that those using ETargets twice a month or more like me, would say that the only outcomes they are capable of changing in a match are sometimes negating an automatic “0” for no-reads.
To explain, it is accepted reality that E-Targets are capable of not recording a shot. Because of this fact, three groups of people potentially receive a benefit from the plausibility of a no-read, when they have fired but no shot was located, they are:
1) those prone to cross firing - the receiving target may not notice the shot, or worse, may silently plow ahead when an iffy X or 10 occurred in tough conditions, but would have happily called out a stray 8. This obviously undermines holding the source of the crossfire accountable.
2) clean misses, these things happen, - hang fires, grazing the trigger, jerking the gun, un-commanded light trigger releases, - in any of these instances, you can’t get out of a 6 but a clean miss may be determined a no-read.
3) faulty ammo users - shooters who very occasionally light charge bullets or blow up bullets may receive the benefit of a presumed no-read, when the bullet never reached any target.
In pulled target matches, there is no analog to these, but there is a different potential problem that brings the match to at exactly the same place.
If a shooter absolutely insists to a scorekeeper they have not shot since the last announced score, and the scorekeeper is certain that they did, someone is wrong or is lying, and there is likely no MD decision that is immune to a 10 point error being made.
An errant shooter could be concealing a squib, or an overzealous scorekeeper could be sandbagging an innocent shooter, who is to say. Used ammo boxes won’t resolve the problem and no rule says brass piles must be kept.
I will say the opposing loggerhead stalemate is far more rare than no-reads that actually are the e-target’s fault, but I bring it up because neither system is actually assured of dealing with the issue such that the outcome mirrors the facts.
To explain, it is accepted reality that E-Targets are capable of not recording a shot. Because of this fact, three groups of people potentially receive a benefit from the plausibility of a no-read, when they have fired but no shot was located, they are:
1) those prone to cross firing - the receiving target may not notice the shot, or worse, may silently plow ahead when an iffy X or 10 occurred in tough conditions, but would have happily called out a stray 8. This obviously undermines holding the source of the crossfire accountable.
2) clean misses, these things happen, - hang fires, grazing the trigger, jerking the gun, un-commanded light trigger releases, - in any of these instances, you can’t get out of a 6 but a clean miss may be determined a no-read.
3) faulty ammo users - shooters who very occasionally light charge bullets or blow up bullets may receive the benefit of a presumed no-read, when the bullet never reached any target.
In pulled target matches, there is no analog to these, but there is a different potential problem that brings the match to at exactly the same place.
If a shooter absolutely insists to a scorekeeper they have not shot since the last announced score, and the scorekeeper is certain that they did, someone is wrong or is lying, and there is likely no MD decision that is immune to a 10 point error being made.
An errant shooter could be concealing a squib, or an overzealous scorekeeper could be sandbagging an innocent shooter, who is to say. Used ammo boxes won’t resolve the problem and no rule says brass piles must be kept.
I will say the opposing loggerhead stalemate is far more rare than no-reads that actually are the e-target’s fault, but I bring it up because neither system is actually assured of dealing with the issue such that the outcome mirrors the facts.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
In 2017 7th, 8th, and 9th place at the F Class world championship all had the same score, placing was decided by V count (7th and 8th had identical scores and V counts, placing was decided on tie breaker)
In 2020 the SWN final Agg 2nd and 3rd tied, placing was decided on X count (+3)
In 2021 at the East Coast Fullbore championship 1st, 2nd, and 3rd were separated by a total of 1 point and X count.
I am certain that there are others that are just as close, but I know those off of the top of my head because my score was somewhere in the mix on each. If you’re playing to win a point one way or the other matters.
323
Silver $$ Contributor
I don't think anyone is trying to insult him. Many of us have simply offered feedback on how he can make his work less biased and balanced.
Agreed but that also falls upon the OP as well. We can all agree that Shotmarker/SMT targets are not a perfect solution for F-class but, they do allow new ranges to open up for competition where, due to cost and practicality, pull targets are non sequitur. Love them, or hate them, they are here to stay. Hopefully, as times marches on, we can learn of ways to improve the performance to have more shooters comfortable with E-target matches. Maybe even Keith will return.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
E targets are great for participation and they make the MDs life easier. For club matches they are a good thing. I’m with the “not for records and National events” crowd, not that I’ve been to anything in the last couple of years. I don’t imagine anyone skips the Nats or SWN because they weren’t on E targets, though I did skip the FCNC in ‘17 because they were on E targets.
One downside to club use, as noted above by one poster, they mean that new shooters don’t get any pits experience.
One downside to club use, as noted above by one poster, they mean that new shooters don’t get any pits experience.
Uhh, yeah... so your opinion doesn't count!
Jade and I were talking about you the other day, Wade. I'm trying to coerce him into jumping back in the game. We're hoping to have 1000yd matches back on the circuit in Louisiana in the not so distant future on....you guessed it.... E targets; I'm hoping the proximity to his house will make shooting again irresistible. Electronic target availability at a reasonable cost will be the sole reason that can happen at this facility.
Dave Way
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Agreed but that also falls upon the OP as well. We can all agree that Shotmarker/SMT targets are not a perfect solution for F-class but, they do allow new ranges to open up for competition where, due to cost and practicality, pull targets are non sequitur. Love them, or hate them, they are here to stay. Hopefully, as times marches on, we can learn of ways to improve the performance to have more shooters comfortable with E-target matches. Maybe even Keith will return.
Not a perfect solution for F-class and woefully insufficient for Bench Rest matches.
Dave.
Not that they were designed for such. Setting up a range for pull targets is a lot more complicated and expensive than setting up for BR targets where a full protected live fire pit is required. I wouldn't see the point for BR for sure, even if the precision and accuracy were on par with paper. As mentioned, an E target will allow High Power rifle/F-class competition where it would not be otherwise possible (due to cost or other constraints). I, myself, like pit duty on most ranges. The camaraderie is great and we get to trash talk the shooter when they blow a shot
.gmr4
Silver $$ Contributor
E Targets have issues for sure.. but as I said earlier.. toss this test. As far as pulled targets, I really prefer pulled targets but have friend, ranked F Open shooter eho said the target pulling at SW nationals was really bad.. not for everyone but bad for many and that people just dont know how to provide good pit service…. These pullers only shoot e-targets.
I think everyone should demonstrate pulling ability day before the match.. and the ability to get there finger out of there nose and pay attention… OH then there are paid pullers not a hurry in the world.
Its a doubled edged sword….. E-Targets - Poorly Pulled Targets… I will take the properly set up e-targets…. We have shot alot on them and they are just as bad at on the ring shots as some pullers.
I think everyone should demonstrate pulling ability day before the match.. and the ability to get there finger out of there nose and pay attention… OH then there are paid pullers not a hurry in the world.
Its a doubled edged sword….. E-Targets - Poorly Pulled Targets… I will take the properly set up e-targets…. We have shot alot on them and they are just as bad at on the ring shots as some pullers.
gmr4
Silver $$ Contributor
The test is so bad it needed to be called out
323
Silver $$ Contributor
I don’t know how many here have had the honor of doing pit duty at Camp Perry but,,,,,,, I’m glad it’s over… if you were on relay 1-2 you finished in the pits by the time you were back to the 600yd line relay 3-4-5 were long gone. Camaraderie I guess maybe with target pullers to your right and left. You have roll call @6:30 you be lucky to be off the range by 1600 that’s if there were no boats in the impact area, heat cats on the line etc.Not that they were designed for such. Setting up a range for pull targets is a lot more complicated and expensive than setting up for BR targets where a full protected live fire pit is required. I wouldn't see the point for BR for sure, even if the precision and accuracy were on par with paper. As mentioned, an E target will allow High Power rifle/F-class competition where it would not be otherwise possible (due to cost or other constraints). I, myself, like pit duty on most ranges. The camaraderie is great and we get to trash talk the shooter when they blow a shot
323
Silver $$ Contributor
I have my opinion on how the pits at swn were ran but I will keep that to myself, let’s just say it’s not ran like camp perry.
My vote is for E targets, nobody here is getting in younger. Pulling targets consumes a lot of time in matches in which people are winning peanuts/bragging rights. If first and second place wins are in the thousands or 10 thousands then people should have a clean target and either pull manually or check paper, otherwise I think e-targets are close enough and probably gives you more liners than not. Also, people likely lose more points due to shooting in different relays. I’ve been in relay 4 with switch winds when 1st relay had no wind. I’ve also been in matches that people have had 2 1st morning relays when others not, that is way more unfair than worrying about your E target as there is generally less wind early morning. So shoot and have fun, do your best to not be a whiner, be thankful you can afford the travel, afford the rifle, and the expensive rest and ammo as almost no one is getting rich shooting in this sport
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