Do you want the score you actually shot…or the score the E-target says you shot?

[323]

Brian Blake, welcome to the club. They all hate me too, but are we wrong? It's a yes/no question to the others.

Saw that there were a number of E-target National Records set this week in Florida. At these annual Florida matches over recent years, they have set more National Records than at any other range in the U.S. Don't know why these same shooters haven't done the same on paper targets elsewhere. Don't blame the shooters, blame the system.

Wouldn’t say “hate” we are questioning your process. No one runs a Shotmarker system like you with 8 microphones?? Who gave you that idea? Build two targets run shotmarker like it supppsed to be ran and do your test again. Far as ranges national records some ranges are ideal for records to be set. We have a 1k range up here that has little to no wind. Everyone shoots great scores there . We have another range that has a swamp running through it no wind breaks and if you shoot a 585 you did something right.

 

[jpjulian]

Apologies for a slightly off topic question. Is there an E-target that will work outdoors with subsonic small bore at 100 yards?

 

[323]

Apologies for a slightly off topic question. Is there an E-target that will work outdoors with subsonic small bore at 100 yards?

Yes kongsberg but they are spendy I think 4 grand each . I could be wrong on the 4 grand but they are spendy.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

And now you know why I quit F-class. I couldn't justify the effort for a game that wasn't fun anymore.

I'd rather suffer the risk of having an outright cheater pull my target than deal with the random chaos of E-targets. I've had both happen in competition.

You know why? Because we can call for a challenge and have the Pit officer check our target and later validate it with our own eyes when we reface targets, peeking under the pasters when we get to the pits.

Every game has problems and people cheat for dumb reasons. There is no way around it. Technologically savvy folks can cheat on e-targets too...

 

[Bryan Blake]

What were you adjusting your sights to ? The e target display or the paper target?

I never assume they put the faces in the exact center of the acoustic target or that the calibration is perfectly a pinwheel X. If using e target, your centering up is not on the paper. Not sure I am tracking how you lost 7 points from that displacement of paper shots.

I'm guessing you did not watch the video data? Has nothing to do with the centering of the paper vs screen. It is the dispersion. There were 7 points in 90 shots for record that were taken from the pair of shooters.

 

[323]

I'm guessing you did not watch the video data? Has nothing to do with the centering of the paper vs screen. It is the dispersion. There were 7 points in 90 shots for record that were taken from the pair of shooters.

I guess we will never know what system you were using.

 

[Doug Beach]

E-targets, at least the open microphone variety, are not as accurate as a target puller who isn’t overtly negligent or dishonest. I say this as an early adopter, long time user, and match director. I’ll continue to use them for practice and club matches, and continue to believe they are inappropriate for regional, state, & national level matches. I’ve no doubt all the problems can be solved, but they haven’t been yet.

 

[XTR]

I’ve written this before and I’ll do it again here. Participants and MDs love E targets. Competitors don’t. I’ll grant that there may be exceptions, but by and large that’s the rule.

 

[Ahhnother8]

Did a similar test on August 13, 2024.

Same range, same target carrier, same target frame, same clamps, same mic locations, same electronics, same shooter, different rifles (Palma on original post, F-Open here). Marginally better results back then.

This is what astounds me: We buy custom and high dollar stocks, actions, barrels, sights, front rests, shooting coats, etc. Then we EXPECT a gunsmith to indicate our barrels in the lathe to a few tenths and cut a round chamber to a headspace within half a thousandth. Then we buy high dollar and accurate tools to size, anneal, trim, measure, weigh, etc. Then we buy premium components and use the above tooling to measure, weigh, sort, trim, point, etc. Then we assemble ammo with high dollar presses and dies, all to the thousandth of an inch, and to the kernel of powder. Then we go out and test and test and test (don't get me started on the flawed testing procedures of most shooters) trying to eke out the last tiny bit of MOA from the gun. Then after spending all of that time, money and effort, we compete on an e-target that is "close-enough". If that doesn't put it in perspective. Just...WOW!!

Look closely at shots 12, 13, 14. Then shots 15, 17, 18 and their proximate locations from one target to the other. Also look at the shape and group size of shots 1-4 on the top targets and the average velocities. If this target frame setup is a failure, then why do some shots line up fairly well? Are those shots simply anomalies?

I HIGHLY encourage everyone that competes on e-targets to design their own test to determine the accuracy/consistency of the targets. I just did it out of morbid curiosity, but have learned a few things about the targets themselves and about some peoples denial of reality, particularly when it suits them.

 

[Andy Legg]

This is a fairly common problem at matches. Scorers that don't use a spotting scope. If you aren't watching trace, how do you know your shooter didn't cross fire?? This is the scorers responsibility. Using E targets doesn't absolve the scorer of this part of the job.

Where in the NRA/CMP Highpower or F-Class Rule book’s does it state the Score Keeper is to Watch Bullet Trace (to determine Crossfires)…… I looked a could not find it.

 

[JLittle]

Opinion only. The scorer should probably watch the shooter. A scorer may or may not be able to see trace. Some days and some ranges it can be difficult and all of a sudden the scorer is asking did you shoot. Especially with a light round.

 

[distinguished]

We run shotmarker at our local range and on the whole, they have been really good. They have however failed to pick up one shot in each of the last two matches I shot. Knowing that it is an issue and having no shots on targets to either side, we compensate by simply firing an additional round. Not the best way to do it but, it does seem to happen more when you and the shooter next to you fire almost simultaneously.

 

[jimmymac]

This is an interesting thread for a guy like me who only shoots short range BR. I don’t know anything about e-targets. Sounds problematic. Glad I don’t have to deal with that. Feedback is instantaneous in the games I play and I am not depending on anyone or anything other than me.

 

[rwj]

I’ve written this before and I’ll do it again here. Participants and MDs love E targets. Competitors don’t. I’ll grant that there may be exceptions, but by and large that’s the rule.

What’s the difference between participants and competitors?

 

[Doug Beach]

What’s the difference between participants and competitors?

Participants are there out of habit, and love of the game. Competitors may love the game, but are there to win.

 

[Andy Legg]

Opinion only. The scorer should probably watch the shooter. A scorer may or may not be able to see trace. Some days and some ranges it can be difficult and all of a sudden the scorer is asking did you shoot. Especially with a light round.

If you watch the shooter you see gun fire, go to shotmarker wait for time delayed shot indication, Verbally Articulate the shot Value and Number (in string of fire). If you have received an Extra shot (on shotmarker)…. There was a Crossfire and the Physical Scorecard should prevail.

In the above case…. another Scotekeeper did not confirm each shot fired was accounted for. ANY shot that does not show up on your assigned target point shotmarker should be reported immediately to line match director before continuing fire.

 

[323]

We run shotmarker at our local range and on the whole, they have been really good. They have however failed to pick up one shot in each of the last two matches I shot. Knowing that it is an issue and having no shots on targets to either side, we compensate by simply firing an additional round. Not the best way to do it but, it does seem to happen more when you and the shooter next to you fire almost simultaneously.

With the new microphones this pretty much eliminates this. I want to say new microphones came out about in 2024. If you have no shot register by rule you see if there was a crossfire if no crossfire then you give the shooters a provisional. This process was explained by Andy Legg in a post above this.

 

[Jeff Porter]

I'm guessing you did not watch the video data? Has nothing to do with the centering of the paper vs screen. It is the dispersion. There were 7 points in 90 shots for record that were taken from the pair of shooters.

I guess I would be looking for a comparison of shot displacement on a shot by shot basis and then accumulated over the 90 shots. In the 8 years I have been shooting on e-targets and spot checking the correlation, losing 3/4 points per shooter in 45 shots to the E target without a "*" or low quality shot warning for a ghost shot is the most I have seen. Typically scores are equal, or +/- 1 point or X in 20 shot strings.
Most of my comparison data is using shots at 600 and in as close as 100 yards, not 1000. There may be an additional effect of the slower bullet velocity adding to this apparent error.

The data I have seen in other tests and in much smaller sample size checks of my SMT open mike SOLO system indicates that when the acoustic center and the paper center coincide, shots closer to the acoustic center correlate with less variance to the paper hole than those out at the edges of the scoring rings. There has not been a bias to the shooter or the target in any data I have seen prior to yours. The e target giveth, the e target taketh away.

Wind and some ranges pit and carrier constructions can also add to interferences in the acoustic targets, but on the same windy day target carriers are rocking in the wind and the paper target is a moving target as well. Typically more in elevation shots.


In a perfect world, these points of impact would be in the same reference point on any recording system, paper or electronic. I agree that there is a discrepancy when you try to use both paper and e targets at the same time. BUT - when you go to a match, the match bulleting tells you if it is pulled targets or e- targets. You have made the decision to refuse to use e-targets and that is fine. I can see the point of
In matches where they are used, the black bull is only and aiming reference point, all scoring and sight adjustments are made from the display screen and after the smoke clears, that e system score determines the match winner. The convenience of the e-targets has brought in new shooters and kept older guys active too.

With respect to the multiple national records falling in Florida this week, I have seen these guys shoot on paper targets and shot at this range. These are real numbers. The reason all of the National records being noted is that the MD also has a hand in keeping track of those and actually knows what the 300 yard any rifle senior record, or 500 yard Palma rifle police record currently is. When I shot there on a pick up team a couple of years ago we had an HM, MA, EX and a MK shooter, the team classified as an Expert team and we had a blast shooting together but were out of competition and just getting tuned up for individual Regional. At the end of the day, the MD asked us if we were all NRA members as we had broken the Mid Range 3x600 Expert team record... I didn't know there was such a thing! but alas, the MK had allowed his membership to lapse and we we not qualified for the record.

 

[323]

Did a similar test on August 13, 2024.

Same range, same target carrier, same target frame, same clamps, same mic locations, same electronics, same shooter, different rifles (Palma on original post, F-Open here). Marginally better results back then.

This is what astounds me: We buy custom and high dollar stocks, actions, barrels, sights, front rests, shooting coats, etc. Then we EXPECT a gunsmith to indicate our barrels in the lathe to a few tenths and cut a round chamber to a headspace within half a thousandth. Then we buy high dollar and accurate tools to size, anneal, trim, measure, weigh, etc. Then we buy premium components and use the above tooling to measure, weigh, sort, trim, point, etc. Then we assemble ammo with high dollar presses and dies, all to the thousandth of an inch, and to the kernel of powder. Then we go out and test and test and test (don't get me started on the flawed testing procedures of most shooters) trying to eke out the last tiny bit of MOA from the gun. Then after spending all of that time, money and effort, we compete on an e-target that is "close-enough". If that doesn't put it in perspective. Just...WOW!!

Look closely at shots 12, 13, 14. Then shots 15, 17, 18 and their proximate locations from one target to the other. Also look at the shape and group size of shots 1-4 on the top targets and the average velocities. If this target frame setup is a failure, then why do some shots line up fairly well? Are those shots simply anomalies?

I HIGHLY encourage everyone that competes on e-targets to design their own test to determine the accuracy/consistency of the targets. I just did it out of morbid curiosity, but have learned a few things about the targets themselves and about some peoples denial of reality, particularly when it suits them.



View attachment 1753635View attachment 1753636View attachment 1753637View attachment 1753638

We highly encourage you to set up the Shotmarker like it supposed to be setup and not the way you have it set up. Also do you do the string test to center the target?? Have you calibrated the target? Once you do all that then go do your test again. Then come on back and report what you found.

 

[JLittle]

Too bad other records can’t get updated from a few years ago at Nationals. Anyone got a current contact for NRA Competitions?