Red oil version for walnut stocks -- Similar to Holland & Holland

[mauser284]

Guys for those that did not grow up painting and mixing oil paints by hand be careful with this "Slacum" and some of the other finishe recipes listed.

Specificily when you see the word "Turpentine" do not think modern idea of Kleen Strip solvent made from water and pine resin. They mean the resin itself almost never made from pine tree's that has been lightly refined and filtered into a sticky paste or fairly thick oil consistency.

Old School varnish's of that time where not much more than bee's wax and various resins. You would heat them until liquid and paint them onto your art wark after 6-18 months of drying before applying.

So if not up on old school mixing of paint supplies do some research. I was getting ready to hop in the shower and suddenly it hit me that a lot of guys today might not catch that!

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

How about the guys that use CNC machines to pump out copy after copy. Heck, some guys like chassis and some guys like plastic stocks.
Look at the magic that @Bc'z does with a spray gun.
I applaud any craftsman and his work. There is good in keeping the old ways alive and there is good in the new ways of doing things.
The only people I hate are those that want to take my guns away!

All my hunting rifles are European higher end rifles with walnut stocks of varying degrees and over the years I have redon quite a number of the stocks with different methods but a high end custom rifle builder told me that in the end the combo of Schaftol for colour and true oil gets you to the same place it all just depends on patience because if your just going to slather it on its going to look like you just slathered it on over a weekend. I have a higher end walnut stock with around 60 coats of true oil put on over a probably 9 months after a good year or 2 of using different shades of Schaftol oil to get the desired colour and it looks amazing even if I have to say so myself. It wont stand back for any Heim or Rigby rifle but if and when I do another stock Im going to try this red oil method

There are no chassis or plastic stocks in my house...

 

[mauser284]

All my hunting rifles are European higher end rifles with walnut stocks of varying degrees and over the years I have redon quite a number of the stocks with different methods but a high end custom rifle builder told me that in the end the combo of Schaftol for colour and true oil gets you to the same place it all just depends on patience because if your just going to slather it on its going to look like you just slathered it on over a weekend. I have a higher end walnut stock with around 60 coats of true oil put on over a probably 9 months after a good year or 2 of using different shades of Schaftol oil to get the desired colour and it looks amazing even if I have to say so myself. It wont stand back for any Heim or Rigby rifle but if and when I do another stock Im going to try this red oil method

There are no chassis or plastic stocks in my house...

Where are you purchasing Schaftol oil in the USA? Why are you using this stuff routinely on your rifles and shotguns? How many different shades of Schaftol oil do you keep on hand? I have not seen it outside of the EU? I google searched it and only got sites with EU pricing and shipping.

 

[Hal]

Capt O

Any pictures of some of the finished stocks.

Thanks
Hal

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Where are you purchasing Schaftol oil in the USA? Why are you using this stuff routinely on your rifles and shotguns? How many different shades of Schaftol oil do you keep on hand? I have not seen it outside of the EU? I google searched it and only got sites with EU pricing and shipping.

Im not in the USA and I only use it till im happy with the colour, as soon as you start with an oil like True Oil that seals the wood you can dip the stock in Schaftol afterwards and it wont make a difference. If you don't want to seal or alter your stocks colour there is a "gold" Schaftol option that just nourishes the wood that I use on wood furniture.

Hal, ill try to get some pictures but a iPhone camera doesn't take decent pictures of wood stocks unfortunately

 

[mauser284]

Im not in the USA and I only use it till im happy with the colour, as soon as you start with an oil like True Oil that seals the wood you can dip the stock in Schaftol afterwards and it wont make a difference. If you don't want to seal or alter your stocks colour there is a "gold" Schaftol option that just nourishes the wood that I use on wood furniture.

Hal, ill try to get some pictures but a iPhone camera doesn't take decent pictures of wood stocks unfortunately

That would make sense. I assumed your where not in USA when I culd not find it for sale in the USA. You can find Ballistol though so I thought surely some place would have it. Nope. I even saw some luthiers(sp) talking about using it but nothing on where they had gotten in.

Never having used it I wanted to learn more about it!!

 

[mauser284]

So I never would have thought I would do this much home work on this topic. So since I could not get easily Alkanet root chips but could easily find the powder and was later informed I should use the chip I did some digging.


Most gun recipes out of UK and or recycled recipes in the USA have you basically dumping the Alkanet root chips and linseed oil in a jar and sitting it aside for who knows how long. I had never heard of it taking 6 months until this recent thread. It is only when I learned of "Slacum" that you start to see things like alcohol and other solvents being used along with varnish, and various old turpentine, waxes and heat.

Even in the past when I used Alkanet root chips I never let it sit for 6 months or even more than 6 weeks was pushing it. I used boiled Linseed oil more often than I used Tung oil. The difference thought I think was that I have always used some sort of solvent to lightly wet the Alkanet root chips be it mineral spirits, grain alcohol, turpentine, naphtha then added my oil and mixed before sitting it aside.

I was always taught that no matter what oil you where using even if you were not going to make Red Oil the first 3-4 coats of any oil finish should be diluted 50/50 with a solvent. Since Red Oil is just to enhance the wood color I have always either wet the Alkanet root directly then added the oil of my choice or I used oil I had already diluted 50/50.

So I started looking on fabric and yarn dying sights with animal and plant based materials and found that the steeping time for Alkanet root was 1/2 hours to a max of 6 weeks with just a couple of hours being the norm. I also found that it was almost always recommended that one use some form of solvent often grain alcohol and to use the powder to get the quickest and darkest dye extraction. They did mention heat but said it often muddied the color.

So long story short the fact I used powder instead of chips combined with the fact that I have always had some form of solvent in the mix explains the speed of extraction. Even when using chips instead of powder my extraction seems to have gone fast than is the norm and produced a darker stain than shown by Purdy.

I am going to gravity filter through filter media capable of 2 micron filtration and check color. Not sure what size the powder is on the Alkanet root powder I have but I am sure it is larger than 2 microns!

I will try harder to find chips instead of powder next time. It will likely be a long time before I need to make more.

To show finished color of the oil would it be sufficient to put a drop on white A4 copy machine paper to demonstrate color? I do not own anything like Adobe or have a Light Box so it would be outside natural light with my phone camera. I do plan on doing some stock finishing with it this summer so I can easily show the color of the wood before and then after 3-4 coats but that would be a few weeks to months down the line as time permits!

Since we have so many different recipes and methods I would like to be able to give some sort of visual reference to what can be expected by the recipe I put forward as I made it. Would this be seen as helpful? In the old “Usenet” days this was not an option and the old black and white text books often with no images also could not show this.

 

[SGK]

One thing to remember is that the colour of the stock will change (be less red) when the slacum is applied. I believe I posted pics of what my red oil looked like in the other thread. That shown, my red oil didn't look like the red oil I purchased at one stage from Dig Hadoke, a collector, dealer and restorer of vintage English shot guns. (He used to have a tutorial on his website showing the stock finishing process.) Here's a pic I took of my red oil (right) versus his (left). The only explanation I ever got for the difference was that it was likely due to ageing. In any event, you'll see from the pics in the other thread (one 'work in progress' pic copied here below) that using the deep red oil doesn't lead to a red stock.

 

[mauser284]

One thing to remember is that the colour of the stock will change (be less red) when the slacum is applied. I believe I posted pics of what my red oil looked like in the other thread. That shown, my red oil didn't look like the red oil I purchased at one stage from Dig Hadoke, a collector, dealer and restorer of vintage English shot guns. (He used to have a tutorial on his website showing the stock finishing process.) Here's a pic I took of my red oil (right) versus his (left). The only explanation I ever got for the difference was that it was likely due to ageing. In any event, you'll see from the pics in the other thread (one 'work in progress' pic copied here below) that using the deep red oil doesn't lead to a red stock.

View attachment 1669296


View attachment 1669302

Absoultely beautiful! Great Work! Your checkering looks fantastic as well, nice and tight!

Nice piece of wood!

Yes, I agree the deep red oil is not going to turn the stock red. I know this and you know this but I was not sure the younger guys know this!

This is why I was hoping to leave some images so guys get an idea what affect red oil has.

Thanks for sharing!

Makes me wonder if the difference between your home made red oil and your store bought red oil mights also have just been a causulty of mass production or possible heat as well?? Age is always a valid issue with products that depend and suffer from oxidation!

Walnut or most woods in general have some tannins in them depending on which type determines how tightly bound they are. I suspect this controls the color outcome as well. So instead of red and purples over whelming things like you might get with yarns and fabrics you get more redish brown. I suspect more tannins equal more brown and less equals more red, orange and light pruple hues. This is specualtion on my point not at all anything remotely like a fact. If someone knoes do let me know!!

I currently have one piece of walnut that is rather orange brown, one that is milk chcoklate and white choclate brown, one that is almost the color of midweatern dirt with just a hint of red and one that is so rich with dark dark redish brown that it would be a crime to add anything besides oil to the finish.

The last two walnut tree's I had to have cut down on my property had light brown and pink hues to them.

 

[SGK]

No he makes his own and the simple way described above. I used 50:50 edible grade linseed oil (flax seed oil) and walnut oil. So maybe the difference is the use of walnut which is much lighter. Either way, I like the result I got.

 

[SGK]

Guys for those that did not grow up painting and mixing oil paints by hand be careful with this "Slacum" and some of the other finishe recipes listed.

Specificily when you see the word "Turpentine" do not think modern idea of Kleen Strip solvent made from water and pine resin. They mean the resin itself almost never made from pine tree's that has been lightly refined and filtered into a sticky paste or fairly thick oil consistency.

Old School varnish's of that time where not much more than bee's wax and various resins. You would heat them until liquid and paint them onto your art wark after 6-18 months of drying before applying.

So if not up on old school mixing of paint supplies do some research. I was getting ready to hop in the shower and suddenly it hit me that a lot of guys today might not catch that!

Sort of.

There are (sometimes) two 'turpentines' involved. Some recipes use "Venice turpentine" which is a tree resin and not a distilled solvent, together with a solvent such as spirits of turpentine. A 'varnish' is basically a resin dissolved in a solvent. Add some form of wax (a filler) and a siccative (to speed up 'drying') and Bob's your uncle you've got a slacum.

https://www.jacksonsart.com/blog/2022/03/10/larch-venice-turpentine-a-resin-not-a-solvent/

Once again, have a read here.

 

[SGK]

Nice piece of wood!

Thanks. If only Beretta still made their Silver Pigeon S, a base model, in half reasonable walnut.

 

[mauser284]

Sort of.

There are (sometimes) two 'turpentines' involved. Some recipes use "Venice turpentine" which is a tree resin and not a distilled solvent, together with a solvent such as spirits of turpentine. A 'varnish' is basically a resin dissolved in a solvent. Add some form of wax (a filler) and a siccative (to speed up 'drying') and Bob's your uncle you've got a slacum.

https://www.jacksonsart.com/blog/2022/03/10/larch-venice-turpentine-a-resin-not-a-solvent/

Once again, have a read here.

I was not going to go that deep. People looking for Venice Turpentine, Balsalmic Turpentine, and all the other's could fill up a thread alone. I am not sure that many people want to do that deep. You could get 95% to 98% there with out going that deep and making a few modern substituions!

I largely see Salcum as one of those nice if you want to replicate ancient methods 100% but largely a waste of time today.

If you are going to use Red Oil and either Linseed or Tung oil in many many layers with polishing/sanding in between it kind of makes Salcum obsolete or maybe that is a bad choice of words maybe irrelevant is a better word. Just adding some Japanese Drier or similar and finishing wioth more layers of oil and finishing with a hard wax or lacquer like French Polish or a top coat enhanced with urathanes if you even need anything of that might be a better choice!

 

[SGK]

Depends what you want. You'll never fill the grain with a drying oil alone - at least not before your fingers fall off. And I'd never want a polyurethane (dissolved plastic) as a finish. Japanese drier is a siccative of which there are many. Cobalt driers are the most effective with oils like flax/linseed or walnut oil.

The advantages of a traditional finish - apart from looks - is that it penetrates deeply, is highly weather resistant and is repairable without having to redo the whole stock (ie dents and scratches can be easily spot repaired).

As I noted in the other thread, for example, "I understand Tru-Oil comprises 56% mineral spirits, 33% polyurethane ‘varnish’ and 11% linseed and other oils. So, we have a synthetic solvent, a plastic in liquid form and a very low percentage of linseed oil. In my view, it’s a quick ‘n dirty solution only to finishing a gunstock." There isn't much in life that can't be done cheaper and faster for less quality than the way that achieves the best result - everything is a trade-off.

 

[mauser284]

So less than a total week and I think my red oil is darker than most evern after 6 months. Simple filtering got rid of most of the Alkanet Root Powder. Using just paper towels and TP and a single filtering got rid of 99%+ of root powder. After filtering there is a single particle layer on the bottom of the Mason/Ball glass jar.

Sadly where I live in Michigan it has rained every day and been overcast not allowing me to use natural light to photograph.

That said because mine is dilluted 50/50 with solvent when I tried to photgraph it it did not photo well. I tried doing paper towel photo with phones but it did not come out well. It looks similar though but not quite as good as the 6+ month version put up by SGK.

Keeping in mind that my combination is 50/50 Tung Oil and Solvent and only 1 week of total time from start to finish it is impressive compared to 6 month +. I will have to do more testing!

Photo not showing up in email so will try to post latter.

 

[mauser284]

"You'll never fill the grain with a drying oil alone - at least not before your fingers fall off."-SGK I laughed so hard I almost wet myself. It does surely seem like that at times! LOL

 

[mauser284]

Even if you cheat on some projects which I have before and use a Spar Varnish you will end up applying and cutting back at least to 3 times before you approach 100% grain fill. I know of no cheat to get there faster.

Since I am not doing this for a living just for my own needs I do not care how long it takes just the out come.

 

[joshb]

Even if you cheat on some projects which I have before and use a Spar Varnish you will end up applying and cutting back at least to 3 times before you approach 100% grain fill. I know of no cheat to get there faster.

Since I am not doing this for a living just for my own needs I do not care how long it takes just the out come.

Here’s the “cheat” from my stock making thread: Famowood wood filler! Great stuff!

 

[mauser284]

How does using wood filler affect final outcome. Is it detectable int he grain flow, figure, stain, or oil finish?

I have only ever used the sanding slury between coats as a filler until filled.

I ave used CA glue and Shellac to fill not holes and the like. I have never used an actual wood filler. My mom did but I was just the chemist making stains and oils for her work.

 

[joshb]

How does using wood filler affect final outcome. Is it detectable int he grain flow, figure, stain, or oil finish?

I have only ever used the sanding slury between coats as a filler until filled.

I ave used CA glue and Shellac to fill not holes and the like. I have never used an actual wood filler. My mom did but I was just the chemist making stains and oils for her work.

It’s great and it dries quickly. Sand in 5 minutes. They have different colors. I use a reddish color. Think it’s Cherry.