Red oil version for walnut stocks -- Similar to Holland & Holland

[SGK]

“PS: Don't use powdered Alkanet root. You want the chips.“

Mind saying why? Seems powder would release it’s color faster.

Because you want stained linseed oil not a sort of red matcha. It's impossible to strain the residual alkane root powder out. Red Oil is a traditional stain and not a finishing oil / slacum. You're simply colouring the wood - and 'popping' the grain - in preparation for the oil finish. It will go a deep red but then the finishing process will change that colour from a red to deep brown. There are many wood stains out there but the traditional English way of finishing a walnut gun stock is to use a 'drying' oil such as linseed/flax stud in alkanes root. They 'dry' by autoxidation.

Tung Oil today is not at all the Tung Oil of old. It's a colloquial name for a synthetic mixture of chemicals and no longer the oil of the Tung tree.

 

[danny]

Tung Oil today is not at all the Tung Oil of old. It's a colloquial name for a synthetic mixture of chemicals and no longer the oil of the Tung tree.

This is not true. Real Tung Oil is still available, as is that fake stuff.

Pure Tung Oil

Protect Hard Work - Pure Tung Oil by Walrus Oil, natural and safe wood sealer for woodworking, antiques, hardwood floors, and more. FREE Shipping on Orders $75+

walrusoil.com

Tung Oil Finish - Oil-Based Wood Finish | Minwax®}

<p>Minwax Tung Oil Finish: the ideal protective finish for refinished woods, offering a durable, hand-rubbed luster and easy maintenance.</p>

www.minwax.com

Danny

 

[SGK]

The slacum recipes used by the likes of Purdey and other English gunmakers are closely guarded secrets handed down over time. (The original recipe used by Purdey is held in their safe in London and known only to a couple of very well-trused employees.) But they all have the same basic structure. (A 'drying' oil, fillers, drying agents.)

Red Oil, on the other hand, is so simple a stain recipe that it's well known. Oh and simple flax seed / linseed oil is generally used, without the drying agents (that are in 'boiled' linseed oil), to help that stain penetrate deeply into the wood. It dries, actually autoxidises, over a long time period allowing it to penetrate deeply.

Go through the material in the thread I linked to. Happy to answer questions here or there but repeating the thread again here would be a pain.

 

[SGK]

Most of those have drying agents and other additives. 'Tung Oil Finish.' Yes, you can still source straight tung oil but the stuff you see at the hardware store (eg Minwax) isn't it.

BTW why was (original) tung oil used to treat wood? It too is a 'drying' oil with an iodine value of 160-175 (versus linseed oil 170-204). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_value It is this property that enables it to autoxidise. https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/choosing-drying-oil-for-your-art

 

[mauser284]

Not Holland & Holland but right around the corner Westley Richards walnut stock direct example of red oil!

 

[mauser284]

"Set aside and let rest for 6 weeks in a cool dry place."

More like six months or even longer.

"Red Oil" is simply a dye. It is not used as a finishing oil aka "slacum". First the walnut is dyed with red oil and then finished with slacum. (And maintained with simple boiled linseed oil.)

You guys might find this thread interesting. It will take you through the process of traditional English stock finish, where to source materials etc.

PS: Don't use powdered Alkanet root. You want the chips.

Sure the chips are easier to decant but really if you have ever decanted anything in high school or college chemistry class the powder is not a problem. Using decanting and some cheese cloth or painters guaze strainer funnel the dispossible kind the powder is not a problem.

I suspect the reason it is taking your mixture so long is because you are using the chips. You have less surface area open to the oil or oil/solvent mixture.

The powder is often used in soap making and cosmetics so it is easier to find.

If I did not use a solvent to thin the mixture and speed up the process there is absolutely no reason why you could not use red oil from start to finish.

You would not want to in most cases because at some point you could obscure the figure and darken the wood too much. We want to enhance the natural beauty of the wood not paint it in red enamle.

For the record I just made my batch up less than a week ago and it is already way darker than Tart Cheery Juice Concentrate you would take for your joints. It is getting darker by the day. If I hold it up to a 150 watt light bulb no light passes through the glass. When held up next to the black glaze on my crockpot liner it is almost as dark as that and that is a black glaze. If you made honey as thin as say Half and Half or Whole Milk that is the consistency.

When I decant it I might add some boilded linseed or toungue oil with no solvent just to see if their is any tint/dye still left in it that can be extracted. The powder works super fast though compared to what you mention with the chips.

 

[SGK]

Yes. First enhanced with "red oil". This is to stain the walnut and 'pop' the grain. Then dozens of coats of finishing oil aka 'slacum'. I suggest you watch the videos on the Purdey Instagram account which I linked to for a much more in-depth overview of the process.

 

[mauser284]

You can easily still purchase real 100% Tung Oil. It is not even diffacult if you use the internet.

I prefer Tung Oil to Linseed Oil but I have used both for decades off and on.

I am not a real wood worker that would be my mom and uncles and such. I just play around every decade or so on my own stuff. Growwing up though as a child you are free labor for mom and dad and we all have gifts. I am pretty good with making my own chemicals and such. I am not a professional though at all.

If I ever make red oil again though I will try the chips to see which I prefer? I only have two stocks I am working on maybe 3 depending. I am sure the amount of red oil I have made right now is enough to do 12-13 stocks since you are only looking at 3-12 coats depending on color you want before switching over to just natural oil.

Always great to have options!

 

[SGK]

Tung (vernicia fordii) nut oil

Good luck to you sir. Lots of ways to skin a cat. What I summarised in considerable detail in the other thread is the traditional English way of finishing a gun stock. There are also some very good threads on the DoubleGunShop forums with input from English stock makers. (I believe I linked to some of them in the thread.)

BTW there's an interesting story behind the Purdey slacum/finishing oil. One of James Purdey's employees (Harry Lawrence was his name I believe) used his own formula and over time it came to be noticed that his stock finishes were considerably better than others. Purdey tried to acquire the formula, but he refused to share it. Ultimately, I believe his son sold the formula to the company after his death. It's been a closely guarded secret ever since.

Each manufacturer has their own slacum formulation as do various stock makers but they all have the same basic components (drying oil, filler, dying agents/siccative, wax). A good product that can be purchased is that of Trade Secret.

 

[mauser284]

Yes. First enhanced with "red oil". This is to stain the walnut and 'pop' the grain. Then dozens of coats of finishing oil aka 'slacum'. I suggest you watch the videos on the Purdey Instagram account which I linked to for a much more in-depth overview of the process.

I have done this before just not something I do often. It has been decades since I last made red oil. I largely leave most Walnut alone and just finish with boiled linseed or Tung oil. For every stock I have modified or enhanced I have probably done 4 with no enhancement or correction to the color at all.

Sometimes you want a particular look and the wood you have might be beautiful but just not have the color you want.

I have one stock like this that looks like a combination of light milk choclate brown and even lighter shades of brown. The figure is really nice and has tight grain. I love the figure flow and the grain structure but not a fan of the color. So it will be getting some help with some red oil. I have another stock that has such nice redish brown and black figure it needs nothing but Tung oil with no need for red oil at all!

If I was a brand though I would want to make my wood look as bespoke and trademark consistent color.

 

[mauser284]

Most of those have drying agents and other additives. 'Tung Oil Finish.' Yes, you can still source straight tung oil but the stuff you see at the hardware store (eg Minwax) isn't it.

BTW why was (original) tung oil used to treat wood? It too is a 'drying' oil with an iodine value of 160-175 (versus linseed oil 170-204). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_value It is this property that enables it to autoxidise. https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/choosing-drying-oil-for-your-art

Very intersting! I saved those links.

I used to make my own paints from pigment and oil for a long time. In high school I got lazy and switched to arcylics. Brings back a lot of memories though. As an Army Brat I spent hours in muesums in Germany, France, Belgium sketching the masters and painting at home from sketches I made while out.

I do not paint much these days but in the last 15 or so years my wife has taken up painting.

 

[SGK]

Here's a link to the Purdey video on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

The whole series is worth watching because of the detail they go though. The stock colouring with red oil and finishing starts at about the 38 minute mark. (Holland & Holland, and other gunmakers, use the same process, although Purdey is renowned for taking their stocks to a mirror finish.) Note they use only about 2 coats of red oil to colour the stock. They then move on to 'finishing' the stock with slacum.

 

[SGK]

Very intersting! I saved those links.

Lots more links and info in the other thread.

The idea behind not using the powder is you want the red oil to penetrate deeply, staining as it goes, and autoxidise deep in the wood for protection. Because the powder can be more difficult to remove from the oil it can inhibit this penetration. (Part of why a powder mix can be so dark so quickly is because a lot of the powder is still in suspension in the oil and not yet all settled at the bottom of the jar.) Hence the suggestion to use the chips. They are just as readily available. At any rate, that's the recommendation of most English stock finishers who are prepared to share their experience. (Heating can help speed the steeping.)

One thing I'd suggest is steeping a batch, decanting the small amount you need and leaving the rest even longer. At one point I purchased some from Dig Hadoke at Vintage Guns in the UK. It had been steeping for several years.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

You guys will fall on your backs if you knew how many Gustom gun makers used Scahftol oil out of the bottle and true oil as a finish.

 

[joshb]

You guys will fall on your backs if you knew how many Gustom gun makers used Scahftol oil out of the bottle and true oil as a finish.

How about the guys that use CNC machines to pump out copy after copy. Heck, some guys like chassis and some guys like plastic stocks.
Look at the magic that @Bc'z does with a spray gun.
I applaud any craftsman and his work. There is good in keeping the old ways alive and there is good in the new ways of doing things.
The only people I hate are those that want to take my guns away!

 

[SGK]

You guys will fall on your backs if you knew how many Gustom gun makers used Scahftol oil out of the bottle and true oil as a finish.

Sure. They're just not a "best London oil finish." Different strokes for different folks.

I was in Purdey's Mayfair store not long ago admiring their stock of guns on display including this not fully finished pair (they would be finalised after purchase). Ch-ching. (Yes, that's almost US$550,000.)

 

[mauser284]

I am learning a lot. Thank You! Like I said I am no professional I refinish or build a couple of stocks from scratch every few decades! Thanks for sharing every one!

 

[mauser284]

Lots more links and info in the other thread.

The idea behind not using the powder is you want the red oil to penetrate deeply, staining as it goes, and autoxidise deep in the wood for protection. Because the powder can be more difficult to remove from the oil it can inhibit this penetration. (Part of why a powder mix can be so dark so quickly is because a lot of the powder is still in suspension in the oil and not yet all settled at the bottom of the jar.) Hence the suggestion to use the chips. They are just as readily available. At any rate, that's the recommendation of most English stock finishers who are prepared to share their experience. (Heating can help speed the steeping.)

One thing I'd suggest is steeping a batch, decanting the small amount you need and leaving the rest even longer. At one point I purchased some from Dig Hadoke at Vintage Guns in the UK. It had been steeping for several years.

I had considered heating as well.

Now I will have to pump my oil through a sub micron filter or centrifical filter. LOL......I doubt I will go that far. I will have to get a Whattman GDO .45 micron filter.....LOL I will end up with pharmicutical grade red oil! If only I had started with USP grade Tung oil and or sterilized it first! LOL

Now you have me woried I wont be able to get the solids out!

 

[joshb]

I had considered heating as well.

Now I will have to pump my oil through a sub micron filter or centrifical filter. LOL......I doubt I will go that far. I will have to get a Whattman GDO .45 micron filter.....LOL I will end up with pharmicutical grade red oil! If only I had started with USP grade Tung oil and or sterilized it first! LOL

Now you have me woried I wont be able to get the solids out!

Aw, don’t worry about it. I figured the powder in the oil will just help fill the pores. I have some mixed up to try. I give it a good shake every time I hit the shop. When I think it’s ready, I’ll try some test pieces.

 

[mauser284]

I have not done the "Slacum" part before. I have used polishing slury with additional oil at each stage up to about 2000-3000 grit. Then I used a wax/oil/turpintine mix and a large lose cotton wheel to buff things out or did it by hand depending on what I had access too.

The "Slacum" does not seem to be too far off from how I have done it. It is not like it is night and day different.

Then again no one really taught me I just learned by doing and trying and reading popular mechanic books, popular scieince, old books at my library or yard sales growing up.

The idea of putting the Slacum on in the end game to fill pores and then buffing 98% of it off with more oil seems a bit backward to me.

No arguing the end result though. Now I will have to try it both ways and see what I like better.

Guys very very intersting stuf. Love learning how other's skin a catfish it get's me thinking and I love thinking!