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Over Annealing ?

The link at the bottom has a chart shows the different hardness name (Dead Soft, Soft, Halve Hard, Hard, Extra Hard, and Spring Hard) and the Vickers Hardness (HV) ranges for the type of hardness Names for BRASS!!!!

OK YOU TWO!!! ELR VLR and Straightshooter1!!!!!!!!!
I recommend using a water bath 1st!!!!
Quench as soon as possible 2nd!!!!
Reasons below!!!!!

As Straightshooter1 has found, Lapau brass is, at the neck 100 HV (Half Hard)!

Go to the Norma Bullet home page, and scroll down an see their different grain structure and HV numbers, grain sizes and structured! In COLOR!!! This info below is from the Home Page!!!

IMO, the punched disk or slug is classified Dead Soft Brass with very large Crystalline grains!!!
1st draw cup: 69 HV, Large crystalline grain (lower Soft)
2nd draw cup: 81 HV, Large flattened grain (Soft)
Head of finished case: 190 HV very fine small grain (Spring hard)
Lower body: 170 HV a little large elongated crystalline grain (Extra Hard)
Neck: 120 HV large (Half Hard)

WOOOO! SPRING BRASS HARD IN THE HEAD!!! Everyone knows, you don't want heat on a spring!!!!!!! Unfortunately, we get heat from the fired round!!! Thank God the head only sees a few milliseconds of heat!!!! Try to avoid adding addition heat to the head/lower body which could change their properties some!!!

OK, 120HV (Norma neck) vs 100HV (Lapau neck)!!
Why the difference??? Norma's market is geared towards the hunter/shooter and has been around for a long time!!! Lapau's market is geared, mostly towards the COMP shooters now!!!

Rifle brass vs Target brass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMO, You could make Rifle brass into Target brass and maybe avoid CLICKERS!!!

I NEVER WANT TO HEAR THE TERM "SOFT" WHEN TALKING ABOUT BRASS AGAIN, UNLESS IT HAS AN ADJECTIVE IN FRONT OF THE TERM!!!!!!!

NOTE: Hard brass starts at 130HV!!! The start of possible neck slitting or cracking!!!!

www.bing.com

Hardness of Brass - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
www.bing.com www.bing.com
 
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Wild Bill IV said:
OK YOU TWO!!! ELR VLR and Straightshooter1!!!!!!!!!
I recommend using a water bath 1st!!!!
Quench as soon as possible 2nd!!!!
Reasons below!!!!!

As Straightshooter1 has found, Lapau brass is, at the neck 100 HV (Half Hard)!

Go to the Norma Bullet home page, and scroll down,you will see their different grain structure and HV numbers, grain sizes and structured!
I would say the punched disk is classified Dead Soft Brass!!!!
1st draw cup: 69 HV, Large crystalline grain (lower Soft)
2nd draw cup: 81 HV, Large flattened grain (Soft)
Head of finished case: 190 HV very fine small grain (Spring hard)
Lower body: 170 HV a little large elongated crystalline grain (Extra Hard)
Neck: 120 HV large (Half Hard)

OK, 120HV (Norma neck) vs 100HV (Lapau neck)!!
Why the difference, Norma's market is geared towards the hunter/shooter and has been around for a long!!! Lapau's market is geared, mostly towards the COMP shooters now!!! Maybe, Lapau brass may be too short in the lower body and head for reason!!! Think about that!!!!

Rifle brass vs Target brass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMO, You could make Rifle brass into Target brass and maybe avoid CLICKERS!!!

Here a generalization of Cartridge brass!!!

www.bing.com

Hardness of Brass - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
www.bing.com www.bing.com
Click to expand...
Quenching brass does nothing. I am having more fun analyzing the people that post than the post itself.
 
Webster said:
Quenching brass does nothing. I am having more fun analyzing the people that post than the post itself.
Click to expand...
Says the man that pointed out the 10% and 20% draw when he should be looking at 50% to 70% draw range!!!!
You're annealing chart for 550C shows the brass has meet the recovery and start of the crystalline growth at 300C and is well into the growth stage!!!! All three criteria for the annealing process are meet at 550C!!! RECOVERY, NUCLEUS CRYSTALLIZATION, CRYSTALLINE GROWTH!!!! Especially when the neck of the case is thin shim vs an 1/8th thick plate!!! Big difference thermodynamically!!!
And doesn't understand in the case drawing process, they want to increase the draw!!!!
The grain size of the neck is around 8 micrometers, 0.008mm, 0.00031 inches!!!!
Is that size helpful??
 
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ELR LVR said:
Well I do understand it is "EASIER" to bring the temp up quickly and quench it quickly
which is what i mentiond most of us do. Since it's quick and easy
-------------
But Im giving some thought to the fact the Mfgr that recommended I anneal(Temper) my Beryllium copper for 30 mins, may be a good thought to give to our brass as well to achieve some better elasticity
Springiness
in neck tension ya see.
Regardless of how difficult it may be to keep the base cool enough to not anneal that portion
Tempering the neck may be beneficial for the brass for our uses.
Click to expand...
Yup, I find "tempering" the neck, the annealing of brass process we go through, quite beneficial. :)
 
Wild Bill IV said:
Says the man that pointed out the 10% and 20% draw when he should be looking at 50% to 70% draw range!!!!
You're annealing chart for 550C shows the brass has meet the recovery and start of the crystalline growth at 300C and is well into the growth stage!!!! All three criteria for the annealing process are meet at 550C!!! RECOVERY, NUCLEUS CRYSTALLIZATION, CRYSTALLINE GROWTH!!!! Especially when the neck of the case is thin shim vs an 1/8th thick plate!!! Big difference thermodynamically!!!
And doesn't understand in the case drawing process, they want to increase the draw!!!!
The grain size of the neck is around 8 micrometers, 0.008mm, 0.00031 inches!!!!
Is that size helpful??
Click to expand...
How could the chart show recrystalization at 300C when the chart only covers 550C? You don't know how to read a chart. You are not a metallurgist. opinions are not facts.
 
Webster said:
How could the chart show recrystalization at 300C when the chart only covers 550C? You don't know how to read a chart. You are not a metallurgist. opinions are not facts.
Click to expand...

Not a metallurgist!! Are you??? But have researched 100s of articles, paper, reports on annealing!!! Including military reports from the ballistics test labs from the 1940s clear on up to the 70s dealing with the cartridge brass in the cartridge form!! Not strips and bars of brass!!! 30-06, 308, 223!!! And it was on microfilm or paper copies in college libraries!!! Also on the internet in latter years! And have also researched from Metallurgy College texts pertaining to Brass Annealing!!! And, some of the old books, written by BR shooters get into the deals of grains and grain growth, size of grains, and hardness dealing with the propane torch/bath method!!! Most BR books said dull orange and knock over the case in the bath water!! Understand almost all terminology with 105hr Pure Science and Mathematics!!!

In your table, does it show annealing 0.010"-0.016" brass shim stock??? That thin shim would come up to 550C really fast in the molten lead pot at 550C!!!

Because the brass will see 300C first, and then go up to 550C!!!
The nucleus crystalline forms at 300C!!!
After the brass sees additional heat past 300C, the nucleus crystalline structure grows, and keeps growing even after the brass hits 550C!!! But, you don't want the brass to get to 550C, or the grains will be too big (past 6-8 micrometers) and make the brass too soft!!! And the longer it sets, the bigger the grain growth and keeps getting softer!! TIME AND TEMPERATURE IS CRITICAL IN ANNEALING THE THIN BRASS NECK, SHOULDER, AND UPPER MOST BODY!!!
 
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Wild Bill IV said:
Because the brass will see 300C first, and then go up to 550C!!!
The nucleus crystalline forms at 300C!!!
After the brass sees additional heat past 300C, the nucleus crystalline structure grows, and keeps growing even after the brass hits 550C!!! But, you don't want the brass to get to 550C for too long, or the grains will be too big (past 6-8 micrometers) and make the brass to soft!!! And the longer it sets, the bigger the grain growth and gets to soft!!!
Click to expand...
Wild Bill IV said:
Because the brass will see 300C first, and then go up to 550C!!!
The nucleus crystalline forms at 300C!!!
After the brass sees additional heat past 300C, the nucleus crystalline structure grows, and keeps growing even after the brass hits 550C!!! But, you don't want the brass to get to 550C for too long, or the grains will be too big (past 6-8 micrometers) and make the brass to soft!!! And the longer it sets, the bigger the grain growth and gets to soft!!!
Click to expand...
The report has a 300C annealing chart. The chart doesn't give any GS data because at 300C there is no recrystallization even for hours at temp. You’re saying because recrystallization can occur at 550C it must start at 300C. Total nonsense. Your making this stuff up.

Where do you get the necks have 70% cold work. Sounds like sizing a neck and it goes from .013" to 0.0039" thickness. 70% cold work means the thickness is reduced by 70%.
 
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Webster said:
The report has a 300C annealing chart. The chart doesn't give any GS data because at 300C there is no recrystallization even for hours at temp. You’re saying because recrystallization can occur at 550C it must start at 300C. Total nonsense. Your making this stuff up.
Click to expand...
Webster,

If my recollection is correct from all that's I've read, doesn't recrystallization actually start somewhere around 400 - 450°C?
 
Webster said:
The report has a 300C annealing chart. The chart doesn't give any GS data because at 300C there is no recrystallization even for hours at temp. You’re saying because recrystallization can occur at 550C it must start at 300C. Total nonsense. Your making this stuff up.

Where do you get the necks have 70% cold work. Sounds like sizing a neck and it goes from .013" to 0.0039" thickness. Daa
Click to expand...

I only deal with non magnums, and don't deal with anything past 30 cal.

The crystalline nucleus forms at 300C!!! A really tiny cube!!! The heart of the RECOVERED grain!!! Hold it at 300C, the nucleus does not grow!!!! Go higher in temp, the crystalline structure starts growing from the nucleus, and so too, the new FCC (Face Centered Cube) lattice!!!

This was explained in the link I sent to you!!!! Did you even look at it????? If you want to know about annealing cartridge brass in the cartridge form, it is worth reading!!!!!
 
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Straightshooter1 said:
Doesn't the amount of temperature needed to start recrystallization vary depending on how hard the brass is?
Click to expand...
The entire report is about 1 MB in it's published form. I pasted just the charts into a word file, it was about 12KB. Cannot attach to a reply.

Yes. Increased CW puts more energy into the metal allowing recrystallization to occur a little sooner.

The charts indicate that any annealing we do is to short of time for recrystallization to occur flash annealing at any temp.

Sometimes a GS number isn't entered in the shortest time column. This is because GS numbers are not assigned to elongated flattened cold worked grains. 15 seconds was the shortest time tested.

From the charts if I can type this up so it makes sense:
300C 70% CR 336 hours no change in GS.
350C 70% CR 2 hours start of a small increase 8 hrs a slight increase in GS.
400C 70% CW 16 minutes the begining of increase. 8 hrs at temp GS went from 0.016 to .017.
450C 70% CW GS starts to increase in 2 minutes.
500C 70%CW GS starts to increase in 30 seconds.
550C 70% CW 15 seconds the beginning of GS increase.
600C at 70% CW 15 seconds the beginning of GS increase.
650C 70%CW 15 seconds GS begins to increase.
 
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Straightshooter1 said:
Doesn't the amount of temperature needed to start recrystallization vary depending on how hard the brass is?
Click to expand...

The nucleus starts dead on 300C!!! I remember seeing that bold red arrow with the point at 300C on two different tables!!!! I believe hardness play a part in when the growth starts from that nucleus!!!!! There can be more than one nucleus with in the recovered old grain!! And, the grains grow into each other as you try to grow bigger grains with time!!! What we are trying to do with annealing case, is recover the old grain crystal, which had been elongated by sizing, seating (sizing and friction), and bullet sliding out of the neck (friction) at firing!!!! The 2 culprits of work hardening!!!
Pressure (used for deformation, even in sizing) and friction!!!!
 
Wild Bill IV said:
The nucleus starts dead on 300C!!! I remember seeing that bold red arrow with the point at 300C on two different tables!!!! I believe hardness play a part in when the growth starts from that nucleus!!!!! There can be more than one nucleus with in the recovered old grain!! And, the grains grow into each other as you try to grow bigger grains with time!!! What we are trying to do with annealing case, is recover the old grain crystal, which had been elongated by sizing, seating (sizing and friction), and bullet sliding out of the neck (friction) at firing!!!! The 2 culprits of work hardening!!!
Pressure (used for deformation, even in sizing) and friction!!!!
Click to expand...


Here's the 300C annealing chart. Hardness is related to yield strength and tensile strength. Forget about GS. if the hardness doesn't change the grip on the bullet doesn't change. No GS data on this charge because there is no grain recrystallization even at 336 hours.
1749242613407.png
 
Webster said:
Here's the 300C annealing chart. Hardness is related to yield strength and tensile strength. Forget about GS. if the hardness doesn't change the grip on the bullet doesn't change. No GS data on this charge because there is no grain recrystallization even at 336 hours.
View attachment 1667317
Click to expand...

Cold working induces stresses in the grains, which increase hardness!! LOOK AT YOUR TABLES!!! %CW from rolling!!!
What caused the drop in hardness then???? RECRYSTALLIZATION of the old grains with no growth!!!! Stress relieving brass!!! Taking the stress out of the FCC lattice, thus reducing the hardness!! The perfect temperature to deform (reshape) without work hardening!! And the long time at 300C, the start of nominal temperature range!!! Looks like from your tables, very slow grain growth starts at 350C!!!

Tensile strength is closely related to hardness!! By the way!!!
 
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