Annealed, sized and what the heck ?

[TTE]

OK, will tell you about brand names and equipment first.

270 Win. Starline brass (trimmed), fire formed to 6.5 06AI
Neil Jones dies, MEC press, Bench Source annealer.

Deprimed - Tumbled (corn cob, vibrator) - Annealed - Set up full length resizing die
Inspected cases, lubed and resized 50 cases w/dwell for about 15 seconds.

Measured the first, second and third cases and they came out perfectly, measuring with a SAC comparator, so continued to resize the rest.

Measured the rest of the cases after finishing resizing. A variation in measurements (used 2 different calipers), some cases are .0005 (ok, probably .001) to .0025 longer than the first 3.

In total 16 came out perfectly and 34 .... no so much. I have no idea what is going on. Some are perfect and some not.

Any ideas ?

Do I need to anneal the longer ones again to resize them ?

Thanks for your replies

 

[Fast14riot]

Longer cases started as shorter, the die squeezes the body but doesn't reach the shoulder and forces it up. Most likely a slight angle change in the shoulder. Give them another firing after checking they chamber, and everything will be fine.

 

[ronemus]

Most manufacturers make brass to SAAMI minimum dimensions, which is often 0.006" under the length of a SAAMI minimum chamber. Sizing new brass will make it longer, but generally less than chamber length; the shoulder often doesn't touch the shoulder of the die so length is inconsistent. After firing the brass will make full contact with the die and will be sized uniformly.

 

[Fast14riot]

I also shoot an AI chamber and don't measure my brass until after the 2nd firing. I will check them in the chamber, but I only start to separate match brass after the 3rd firing as I've now narrowed down my load.

 

[TTE]

Most manufacturers make brass to SAAMI minimum dimensions, which is often 0.006" under the length of a SAAMI minimum chamber. Sizing new brass will make it longer, but generally less than chamber length; the shoulder often doesn't touch the shoulder of the die so length is inconsistent. After firing the brass will make full contact with the die and will be sized uniformly.

This is not new brass.
On it's 4th firing, soon to be 5th.

I did not trim them after the last firing (almost nothing to trim from the previous firing).

I am going on a hunt in a couple of weeks, so was trying to prepare the brass for the hunt. I really don't want to go to the range again before I leave.

Should I anneal the longer cases and resize again or just resize them turning the die down a tiny bit ?

 

[Walt Krafft]

How do they chamber in the gun?

 

[Straightshooter1]

This is not new brass.
On it's 4th firing, soon to be 5th.

I did not trim them after the last firing (almost nothing to trim from the previous firing).

I am going on a hunt in a couple of weeks, so was trying to prepare the brass for the hunt. I really don't want to go to the range again before I leave.

Should I anneal the longer cases and resize again or just resize them turning the die down a tiny bit ?

You're not going to hurt them by annealing again.

I'm thinking, maybe clean your bass AFTER you've annealed before sizing??? Also, am also wondering how you determine when the cases come out of the flame??? It sounds to me like you're may not be getting the anneal you're after, where the brass is not as soft as you think and has work hardened to the point where they're springing back (e.g. they're on their 4th firing)???

 

[TTE]

You're not going to hurt them by annealing again.

I'm thinking, maybe clean your bass AFTER you've annealed before sizing??? Also, am also wondering how you determine when the cases come out of the flame??? It sounds to me like you're may not be getting the anneal you're after, where the brass is not as soft as you think and has work hardened to the point where they're springing back (e.g. they're on their 4th firing)???

They all got annealed at the same time. Be that as it may, I will take your advise and anneal the long ones again and resize them. They are already clean, so won't tumble them again, so will just anneal and resize

 

[Straightshooter1]

They all got annealed at the same time.

That's not what I meant. What's the detail of your annealing process? Are you using 2 torches? How long are you leaving them in the flame. . . until you see the flame turn color; until the neck starts to glow, etc.? I'm trying to get an idea of how hot your getting the necks and for how long. . . which is the key issue.

Be that as it may, I will take your advise and anneal the long ones again and resize them. They are already clean, so won't tumble them again, so will just anneal and resize

If you're not cleaning them after annealing, the oxidation film deposit on the brass can produce drag, even on clean brass, that effects how consistent the cases are being worked in the sizing die . . . even with 15 seconds of dwell time (BTW, that's a LONG dwell time ).

PS: are you using an expander button in the die or none at all and then expanding with a mandrel die?

 

[Fast14riot]

Heres a trick, take some feeler gauge and stick it under the case head in the shell holder and size it again. You don't loose your die setting and get a custom shoulder bump on each case. Use appropriate gauge thickness for increased shoulder bump.

But, unless its varmint/predator hunting, I usually make sure I have at least 5 rounds for any big game.

Also, try a 5-10 second dwell time at full stroke when sizing to allow the brass to relax to resized state before raising handle.

 

[TTE]

2 torches ..... necks turning red, not as quite as red as Erik Cortina's in his vid.
No button, using mandrel.
15 seconds is a guess. Lube case and replace case in press, pull handle, wipe case lube off, swivel chair to put case in loading rack, swivel back. lube another case, replace case in press and so on.

 

[Straightshooter1]

2 torches ..... necks turning red, not as quite as red as Erik Cortina's in his vid.
No button, using mandrel.
15 seconds is a guess. Lube case and replace case in press, pull handle, wipe case lube off, swivel chair to put case in loading rack, swivel back. lube another case, replace case in press and so on.

Hmmm??? Maybe you should get the necks red as in Erik's video! Though I'm not sure which time frame you're referring to, like the 10 second one? While the red he got with 10 seconds is just fine, it's the amount of time at that red was is just a little too long, and where the flame was pointed was too low resulting in too much heat down below the shoulder (IMHO). And notice in his video when he did his "neck tension test" those done for 10 seconds were more ductile and a little more consistent that the 6 seconds he did on the other. I'm sure if he'd cleaned the inside of the necks for that test, it would have been a better test showing the difference as that oxidation layer is really abrasive, adding to more inconsistent results.

Based on what you're reported, I really think you're just not getting the ductility for your necks and shoulders down enough to get the consistency you're after. Try just a little more time in the flame and don't be too concerned how red it gets for that little more time. You may need to raise the aiming points of the torch flames a little too.

 

[ELR LVR]

Could there be inconsistency in your annealing process?
(Not enough dwell time in the flame or something such as what you hold them with acting as too much of a heat sink not allowing them to fully anneal?)
IE: I anneal with the bottom half of the case in a pan of water so as not to anneal the base.
But if the water level is just a touch too high I can hit it with the torch for 15 seconds and it still wont turn them red.
So in that example they will never anneal no matter how long I keep them under the torch.
But someone may think they got annealed just because it was under a flame for 15 seconds.
Do you check they are actually getting annealed by doing them in a dark room until you physically witness
they turn dull red?
Or are you just hitting them with a flame and thinking they are annealed just because a flame touched them?

 

[SKWERLZ]

Longer cases started as shorter, the die squeezes the body but doesn't reach the shoulder and forces it up. Most likely a slight angle change in the shoulder. Give them another firing after checking they chamber, and everything will be fine.

^^^^

 

[boltfluter]

2 torches ..... necks turning red, not as quite as red as Erik Cortina's in his vid.
No button, using mandrel.
15 seconds is a guess. Lube case and replace case in press, pull handle, wipe case lube off, swivel chair to put case in loading rack, swivel back. lube another case, replace case in press and so on.

Stop annealing. Problem solved. Or get an AMP. No way you will duplicate annealing from day to day with a flame. I do not anneal and life is simple. If I were animate about annealing then get the AMP. Period. "Flame suit on guys". Let me have it!!
Paul

 

[Straightshooter1]

Could there be inconsistency in your annealing process?
(Not enough dwell time in the flame or something such as what you hold them with acting as too much of a heat sink not allowing them to fully anneal?)
IE: I anneal with the bottom half of the case in a pan of water so as not to anneal the base.
But if the water level is just a touch too high I can hit it with the torch for 15 seconds and it still wont turn them red.
So in that example they will never anneal no matter how long I keep them under the torch.
But someone may think they got annealed just because it was under a flame for 15 seconds.
Do you check they are actually getting annealed by doing them in a dark room until you physically witness
they turn dull red?
Or are you just hitting them with a flame and thinking they are annealed just because a flame touched them?

His 15 seconds dwell time he mentioned is the time in the sizing die, not in the flame. . . I'm pretty sure.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Stop annealing. Problem solved. Or get an AMP. No way you will duplicate annealing from day to day with a flame. I do not anneal and life is simple. If I were animate about annealing then get the AMP. Period. "Flame suit on guys". Let me have it!!
Paul

"No way"??? In my experience it's YES WAY. Not at consistent as the AMP, but the difference is so small the difference is ineffective.

 

[Oso]

Primal Rights did a nice video on annealing and its impact on seating force. One of the take-aways was that tumbling after annealing was important to reduce the oxidation particle created during the annealing process.

 

[boltfluter]

"No way"??? In my experience it's YES WAY. Not at consistent as the AMP, but the difference is so small the difference is ineffective.

Glad it's working for you. I just think many new reloaders get information overload what with mandrels, annealing, neck turning, full length sizing , neck sizing, bushing dies,etc...... When, if they stick to the basics, at the start of their reloading career, they may be better off until they understand the whole pic. Just a thought.
Paul

 

[Webster]

OK, will tell you about brand names and equipment first.

270 Win. Starline brass (trimmed), fire formed to 6.5 06AI
Neil Jones dies, MEC press, Bench Source annealer.

Deprimed - Tumbled (corn cob, vibrator) - Annealed - Set up full length resizing die
Inspected cases, lubed and resized 50 cases w/dwell for about 15 seconds.

Measured the first, second and third cases and they came out perfectly, measuring with a SAC comparator, so continued to resize the rest.

Measured the rest of the cases after finishing resizing. A variation in measurements (used 2 different calipers), some cases are .0005 (ok, probably .001) to .0025 longer than the first 3.

In total 16 came out perfectly and 34 .... no so much. I have no idea what is going on. Some are perfect and some not.

Any ideas ?

Do I need to anneal the longer ones again to resize them ?

Thanks for your replies

If they chamber you don't have a problem. Your comparing them to some length you think they have to be.