Time to make the donuts....

[jackieschmidt]

I lubed up 350 30 caliber cores exactly the same way I did the 6mm and core seated the jackets yesterday evening.
I just pointed them up this afternoon.

Just like the 6mm, they came out .0002 larger on the shank than the squeaky clean cores.
They went in the die find, no different than before. But the extraction stroke was definitely more difficult. Almost aggravatingly difficult. I even stopped after a few and re lubed them, adding about 2 more grains of lube. Nothing changed.
You can see from the two sectioned bullets that the core did progress further up in the jacket. The one on the right is the lubed core bullet.
One other thing. The lubed bullets have a faint shadowy ring just above the base. I don’t know what that is all about. The base is about .0002 larger than the shank.

I don’t wish to be pessimistic, but that ring just above the base bothers me. It’s the first time I have seen it on our bullets.

I’ll test them Sunday.

 

[AlNyhus]

Jackie, that 'ring' area is likely the area of the ejection issue. If you compare those to the dry cores, do the wet cored bullets have a sharper edge at the pressure ring...a little less radius?

 

[brcman]

I think that ring around the base is the "lubed" core not adhering to the jacket and slipping forward when the pressure of the core seat punch pushes the bullet into the die.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Jackie can you take a picture of a jacket not core seated right by the base

 

[Phys86]

Can I convince someone to make me some 115ish grain 6mm?

 

[jackieschmidt]

Jackie, that 'ring' area is likely the area of the ejection issue. If you compate those to the dry cores, do the wet cored bullets have a sharper edge at the pressure ring...a little less radius?

Al, if you blow the picture of the two sectioned bullets up, you can see that the radius at the base is just about the same on both.

 

[RGRobinett]

Often, J4 jackets have "ghost rings", which I believe are vestiges of the deep-drawing process (pic below).
In Jackie's post (#673), I believe that the draw-ring was exacerbated when, upon point-up, the core squirted forward, and the jacket collapsed on the "ghost-ring". That the core moved forward is obvious. Still, it is likely that the bullets will shoot well.

Way back, when I was "testing" the bullet length/weight/stability, to get a handle on the reality of real-world vs "book" twist rate results, making very light (short core) for length bullets produced this type of ring(s) - sometimes, in spades - up to three collapses before the jacket base caught back up with the core base! I won't bore everyone with the whole story, except to say that the Robert McCoy and William C. Davis gyroscopic stability formulas both produce reliable, repeatable and predictable results - Sg is all about bullet length and twist rate . . .

The accompanying pic has appropriate info and decently displays the "ghost rings" (burnish marks, or, nanno step in draw die??) - both prior to and following core-seating. I'd bet that better lighting would show this "ghost-ring" on Jackie's J4 jacket, and that it was exacerbated by core slippage.
RG

P.S. Of note: during core seating, and again at point-up, the jacket material is, both radially and longitudinally stretched, thus emphasizing the "ghost-ring(s)".

 

[J.J. Coe]

I lubed up 350 30 caliber cores exactly the same way I did the 6mm and core seated the jackets yesterday evening.
I just pointed them up this afternoon.

Just like the 6mm, they came out .0002 larger on the shank than the squeaky clean cores.
They went in the die find, no different than before. But the extraction stroke was definitely more difficult. Almost aggravatingly difficult. I even stopped after a few and re lubed them, adding about 2 more grains of lube. Nothing changed.View attachment 1658971View attachment 1658972View attachment 1658973View attachment 1658974
You can see from the two sectioned bullets that the core did progress further up in the jacket. The one on the right is the lubed core bullet.
One other thing. The lubed bullets have a faint shadowy ring just above the base. I don’t know what that is all about. The base is about .0002 larger than the shank.

I don’t wish to be pessimistic, but that ring just above the base bothers me. It’s the first time I have seen it on our bullets.

I’ll test them Sunday.

I had the same thing happen on my 6mm flat base dies. Same ring at the base, same issue when ejecting from the point up die, and they shot like chit.
They simply picked up to much diameter from using to much lube on the cores.
It's important to measure the atf/solvent mix......7ml atf to 16oz solvent is max on my fb dies but 5ml to 16oz is what I've settled on.
It takes a little tinkering to get it right.

 

[Larry Koch]

I lubed up 350 30 caliber cores exactly the same way I did the 6mm and core seated the jackets yesterday evening.
I just pointed them up this afternoon.

Just like the 6mm, they came out .0002 larger on the shank than the squeaky clean cores.
They went in the die find, no different than before. But the extraction stroke was definitely more difficult. Almost aggravatingly difficult. I even stopped after a few and re lubed them, adding about 2 more grains of lube. Nothing changed.View attachment 1658971View attachment 1658972View attachment 1658973View attachment 1658974
You can see from the two sectioned bullets that the core did progress further up in the jacket. The one on the right is the lubed core bullet.
One other thing. The lubed bullets have a faint shadowy ring just above the base. I don’t know what that is all about. The base is about .0002 larger than the shank.

I don’t wish to be pessimistic, but that ring just above the base bothers me. It’s the first time I have seen it on our bullets.

I’ll test them Sunday.

The results look good. But the one the matters is the paper test. I know your going to share.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Just for the record, the lube cored 30’s shot like cr-p this morning. .300 bullets at best.
My regular bullets shot their usual.
I think I simply used too much. I did not have time during the week to do some with less ATF in the Acetone.

I have a 100 yard Club Match this week end, then the Gulf Coast Region in Lake Charles, then the Nationals. I haven’t got any time to mess around with this now. Maybe after the Nationals.

 

[Stumpy1]

This might not be the best place to ask this, but I think there is more bullet making knowledge in this thread than anywhere else I know of, so...

I have attached a couple of pictures of bullets to this post that have some pretty awful looking 'folds' in the jacket. These are from a major manufacturer. I found 5 similar to this in the last 80 or so rounds I have loaded up.

I have a few questions for all the bullet makers here;

1. What causes this?
2. Is it a problem that will show up on target?
3. Should I shoot them?
4. Should I contact the manufacturer?
5. Should I ditch the entire lot of bullets (based on the number found so far)?

Thank you in advance for furthering my education!!!

Frank

 

[AlNyhus]

I got this yesterday. I wonder if Charlie could do anything with this for cores????

 

[ebb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonite Did Hans Solo send that to you from the future?

 

[jackieschmidt]

This might not be the best place to ask this, but I think there is more bullet making knowledge in this thread than anywhere else I know of, so...

I have attached a couple of pictures of bullets to this post that have some pretty awful looking 'folds' in the jacket. These are from a major manufacturer. I found 5 similar to this in the last 80 or so rounds I have loaded up.

I have a few questions for all the bullet makers here;

1. What causes this?
2. Is it a problem that will show up on target?
3. Should I shoot them?
4. Should I contact the manufacturer?
5. Should I ditch the entire lot of bullets (based on the number found so far)?

Thank you in advance for furthering my education!!!

Frank

Of course, the first question should be……Who or what company made them?
That can happen during point up. I have had it happen only once.

Use them to clear the barrel after cleaning.

There is no reason to suspect the rest of the bullets.

Look at it this way. That was simply a quality control problem by the manufacturer. But who knows, Those could be coming out of the final operation, cleaned and packaged without a real human ever seeing them.

 

[Stumpy1]

George, and Jackie, thanks for the comments. I'm not going to out the bullet manufacturer, especially for something that can happen fairly easily, apparently. Mostly, I want to learn about how this happens, and what it means in practical terms.

Having read most if not all of the posts in this thread, I am still amazed that anyone can produce commercial amounts of bullets for anything resembling a reasonable price.

I WILL give the rest of the bullets in this lot a better look-see before I put them in my shooting box though .

Thanks again,

Frank

 

[Larry Koch]

A wise man said to me, it's all about lube control on making great bullets.

 

[AlNyhus]

A wise man said to me, it's all about lube control on making great bullets.

The lube part of bullet making is critical. Quite a few different recipes work but they all share some common traits. As strange as it sounds, jacket lube can be too 'slippery'...it needs a certain amount of drag. Randy Robinett says it best...lube is a necessary evil.

 

[Tricky5225]

I got this yesterday. I wonder if Charlie could do anything with this for cores????

Maybe ask Han Solo

 

[AlNyhus]

Maybe ask Han Solo

Maybe Princess Leia.....

 

[AlNyhus]

It's a cool, windy, rainy day here in The Forbidden Zone....good time to seat cores. They get pushed down using this trick C.S.D.'er (Core Stuff'er Down'er) tool, courtesy of the Hu Hot Mongolian grill.