.308 dimension questions...

[DaveTooley]

hi,
"empty case", meaning cleaned, polished, sized.. no bullet. Checked all dimensions on shoulder, neck etc...all looked good. I believe the .200 line you mean is the dia of the base of the shell....it is .47...these were used maybe 2 X...spec shows .4703
I found on line others who had similar Savage guns, with the problem, chamber too tight, and they did need fixing, documented by savage when they were returned. So have to wait now. uggh.

I also have a savage 10 .308...trying them there, no issue, been using this for years. and never had any issues with that one...from 2011...new gun got a month ago! Its stainless...and may be older from their stock...and a few years ago, seems there were some issues, I might have gotten one of those!

needless to say, I am not happy about this.

So these were fired in a different rifle. That's works some of the time. Some of the time it doesn't. When I get that call from a customer the first question is, was the brass fired in a different chamber? 100% of the time they say yes.

 

[drop_point]

So these were fired in a different rifle. That's works some of the time. Some of the time it doesn't. When I get that call from a customer the first question is, was the brass fired in a different chamber? 100% of the time they say yes.

Exactly.


I have seen rounds fired in one rifle have a mild swell above the .200" line that would make it fail to chamber in some rifles. So far we don't have any evidence of the rifle being out of spec. Just a hunch is all we have. OP, read these:

Minimum Saami for .308 win

Do anyone have a number of Minimum Saami for .308 win? I'm looking about different in case base diameter of each .308 reamer. Seem like they are little vary on base diamerter .4722 , .4703 , .4700 So, just want to know the minimum saami of them.

forum.accurateshooter.com

308 resizing measurements

Hello All Im gearing up for a 308 FTR build and I have been given some old brass from a fellow shooter to check my FLS die with. From what ive been told he has a 95 Palma reamer and the fired brass measurements in my picture are from him. Any suggestions/advice on the below pictures...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[brccd]

So these were fired in a different rifle. That's works some of the time. Some of the time it doesn't. When I get that call from a customer the first question is, was the brass fired in a different chamber? 100% of the time they say yes.

ok, I can appreciate what you are saying, but after FL resizing, Neck sizing, wouldn't this be straightened out? I would think if this were really the issue, reloads would show up with a lot more problems everywhere....

I did make a number of measurements and all looked good. I can understand if the case expanded in one gun, but after resizing, I would think all should be good? Or is there something else I am missing?

I did NOT suspect the gun at first at all...I worried about the reloads, and spent a lot of time reviewing things. I also have factory ammo, and did many measurment comparisons to check things, and saw measurements match up. Did triple checking in the area especially around the scratch areas around the base...you can see in pics. Measurements were all good there. In the first rifle, these work all the time...no issues. Bolt loads and unloads, smooth as silk.

The gun was already sent back to savage, so didnt try factory ammo...and did not want to risk having a live round stuck in there...which almost happened at the range.

I honestly think at this point after all this, and other stories, maybe there are burrs in the chamber grabbing the case, or the milling in chamber is a tiny bit too tight, or both! When I get the gun back, I can give an update...that will probably be at least 4 weeks.

I have 3 other rifles, different calibers, and have done reloading for a few years...never had issues like this!

 

[DaveTooley]

I'll just say that's been my experience based on 40+ in this business.
A new barrel, a new rifle, both need new brass.

 

[brccd]

I'll just say that's been my experience based on 40+ in this business.
A new barrel, a new rifle, both need new brass.

yeah, you are right, I should have started that way. I was pretty confident with the ammo, but that would have removed one variable....will do the next time!

 

[dellet]

There are a couple other things that might indicate a chamber problem. One may be a loading problem worth looking at.

There are other marks on the that look more like gouges than being tight. But the main one is the case mouth.

If that recess at the opening was not there before chambering, either the brass is really long, or chamber is short.

If it was there before, the. There may be a die problem or you have an excessive crimp.

Certainly worth looking at some loaded rounds and checking.

 

[Florida Wally]

yeah, you are right, I should have started that way. I was pretty confident with the ammo, but that would have removed one variable....will do the next time!

I had a similar problem using brass from cartridges shot in a Savage and loaded for a custom chamber. I was able to chamber the brass, but it was a little tight. I bumped the shoulders back a couple thousandths and still a little tight. Loaded it and shot it anyway and the first round got stuck. I had to bop it out with a cleaning rod. My solution was to use a small base body die. The small base die sizes the entire case a little smaller and with the slightly smaller dimension of the body, the problem was solved. Do a little research on small base dies and you will find one of the intended uses is to size fired brass to minimum SAAMI specs to be able to use brass fired in another chamber.

When you get the rifle back, you may still have the same problem. If so, try new brass like Dave Tooley suggests or you might try a small base die. The small base body dies are pretty inexpensive.

 

[brccd]

There are a couple other things that might indicate a chamber problem. One may be a loading problem worth looking at.

There are other marks on the that look more like gouges than being tight. But the main one is the case mouth.

If that recess at the opening was not there before chambering, either the brass is really long, or chamber is short.

If it was there before, the. There may be a die problem or you have an excessive crimp.

Certainly worth looking at some loaded rounds and checking.

View attachment 1609220

yes, these were a little too crimped! but, notice the total scraping line around the circumference toward the back of the case! and some longitudinal ones along the case...none of that was there before the cases were inserted in the chamber...take other clean shells, same batch, put in my savage 10, no issues, came out perfectly clean...i will have to wait several weeks to get the gun back and see what savage says...

 

[brccd]

I had a similar problem using brass from cartridges shot in a Savage and loaded for a custom chamber. I was able to chamber the brass, but it was a little tight. I bumped the shoulders back a couple thousandths and still a little tight. Loaded it and shot it anyway and the first round got stuck. I had to bop it out with a cleaning rod. My solution was to use a small base body die. The small base die sizes the entire case a little smaller and with the slightly smaller dimension of the body, the problem was solved. Do a little research on small base dies and you will find one of the intended uses is to size fired brass to minimum SAAMI specs to be able to use brass fired in another chamber.

When you get the rifle back, you may still have the same problem. If so, try new brass like Dave Tooley suggests or you might try a small base die. The small base body dies are pretty inexpensive.

yes, once I get it back, first tries will be with new brass. Then see if the reloads work..I use LEE dies and press..what small base dies have you used and had success with? The thing is. I made numerous measurments, and the brass I tested this with should have been fine...it was fine in the savage 10...I will have to wait and see. The savage 10 took new and reload, outta the box with no issues! it works smooth as silk...expected that with the 110... this one has a stainless barrel, and maybe that has something to with this ...i dont know...but, this was all very unexpected. The other info i found is people have used flex-hone brushes (http://www.brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c2=183) to polish the chambers....if there are any burrs. Its all a little disheartining...

 

[drop_point]

Down toward the base is where the sizing tends to end on your die. That is where "clickers" come from; that portion of the brass expanding.

I have about seven or eight .308 barrels. Many are customs with similar chambers. With the couple factory rifles I have, there are a couple chambers that fall within SAAMI range and will take new brass/new ammo and have proper headspace, but you put brass from one in the other, it will be tight, the bolt hard to close, and a clicker is certain to occur.

 

[brccd]

Down toward the base is where the sizing tends to end on your die. That is where "clickers" come from; that portion of the brass expanding.

I have about seven or eight .308 barrels. Many are customs with similar chambers. With the couple factory rifles I have, there are a couple chambers that fall within SAAMI range and will take new brass/new ammo and have proper headspace, but you put brass from one in the other, it will be tight, the bolt hard to close, and a clicker is certain to occur.

interesting...I just thought, the resizing would fix this to be correct, but sounds like you have experienced the similar issue with the reloads. I am puzzled., i measured the cartridge completely and it was all to saami spec., so started to question rifle...well out of my hands now and have to wait. Good to know you have had this experience. Someone on the site mentioned that there are dies that size a tiny bit smaller, maybe to handle this...something to look into, if that is really the problem. so if you started with once fired brass, you may still have a problem?

 

[Florida Wally]

yes, once I get it back, first tries will be with new brass. Then see if the reloads work..I use LEE dies and press..what small base dies have you used and had success with? The thing is. I made numerous measurments, and the brass I tested this with should have been fine...it was fine in the savage 10...I will have to wait and see. The savage 10 took new and reload, outta the box with no issues! it works smooth as silk...expected that with the 110... this one has a stainless barrel, and maybe that has something to with this ...i dont know...but, this was all very unexpected. The other info i found is people have used flex-hone brushes (http://www.brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c2=183) to polish the chambers....if there are any burrs. Its all a little disheartining...

This is the die I use. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012478292?pid=378388

Hopefully, when you get the rifle back it will shoot fine. I suspect it will.

 

[brccd]

This is the die I use. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012478292?pid=378388

Hopefully, when you get the rifle back it will shoot fine. I suspect it will.

Hi ... I was going to post a question about this type of die after reading some more things about all this...
found the RCBS version


decided to order this and play with it while waiting for the gun to get back! ( if I saw your post first, might have gottne that one!)

I guess the real question is...using this die, and it supposedly goes to slightly less than saami specs, is there any thing else to be concerned with???

The current reloads look like the meet spec, work in one rifle, but has an issue in a "tight chamber", then use this die to try to make things work in the 2nd rifle, will these resized cases have an issue in the first rifle?

Have you used the small base die you use to make reloads used in more than one rifle? any issues?

Thanks

 

[Florida Wally]

Hi ... I was going to post a question about this type of die after reading some more things about all this...
found the RCBS version
View attachment 1609492

decided to order this and play with it while waiting for the gun to get back! ( if I saw your post first, might have gottne that one!)

I guess the real question is...using this die, and it supposedly goes to slightly less than saami specs, is there any thing else to be concerned with???

The current reloads look like the meet spec, work in one rifle, but has an issue in a "tight chamber", then use this die to try to make things work in the 2nd rifle, will these resized cases have an issue in the first rifle?

Have you used the small base die you use to make reloads used in more than one rifle? any issues?

Thanks

I’m sure the RCBS die is just as good as the Redding die. A few things to note. Clean the die really good before you size your first case. Also, lube the case really well and set it up to bump the shoulders of the case just like you any other sizing die. When I use the small base die, it takes a little more effort to size than a standard die, which makes sense. The case also seems to rub or grind against the inner walls of the die quite a bit.

Once I have run the cases through the body die, they will fit in the tight chamber rifle no problem. I only size them with the small base die once, and after firing, I use a standard die. I can also use the brass in the original file without any problem as well, but if I go back to the tight chamber, I have to small base size them again.

 

[Florida Wally]

There is nothing to be concerned with when you use the small base die. During a conversation regarding clickers, I had a well respected gunsmith tell me I could use the small base die every time I sized my brass if I wanted to use it to avoid clickers, but that is another issue.

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[brccd]

Exactly.


I have seen rounds fired in one rifle have a mild swell above the .200" line that would make it fail to chamber in some rifles. So far we don't have any evidence of the rifle being out of spec. Just a hunch is all we have. OP, read these:

Minimum Saami for .308 win

Do anyone have a number of Minimum Saami for .308 win? I'm looking about different in case base diameter of each .308 reamer. Seem like they are little vary on base diamerter .4722 , .4703 , .4700 So, just want to know the minimum saami of them.

forum.accurateshooter.com

308 resizing measurements

Hello All Im gearing up for a 308 FTR build and I have been given some old brass from a fellow shooter to check my FLS die with. From what ive been told he has a 95 Palma reamer and the fired brass measurements in my picture are from him. Any suggestions/advice on the below pictures...

forum.accurateshooter.com

yes for now a hunch on the rifle, need confirmation. From things I read, peoples inputs, seems like 50/50 chance its the rifle. That also means, 50/50 chance...the ammo! One thing I could have tried is geting the GO No-Go gauges to test the rifle...that might have told a story immediately...some investment there. When I posted this thread, was hoping others ran across this problem, and had advice. I am seeing lots of advice....helps build knowledge! Thanks everyone, I do appreciate the inputs. There are definately some things to review.

 

[brccd]

There is nothing to be concerned with when you use the small base die. During a conversation regarding clickers, I had a well respected gunsmith tell me I could use the small base die every time I sized my brass if I wanted to use it to avoid clickers, but that is another issue.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Thanks for the info...quick question...the term "clickers", is that what people call this cartridge thing getting stuck in the chamber, with scratches? Have not heard that one...ha!

 

[Florida Wally]

Thanks for the info...quick question...the term "clickers", is that what people call this cartridge thing getting stuck in the chamber, with scratches? Have not heard that one...ha!

Not necessarily with scratches, but stuck a little causing the bolt to “click” when it opens. Usually clickers are associated with hot loads.

 

[HandgunHTR]

A "clicker" is when you start to rotate the bolt up to extract a case and you get to the cam-over point and it catches and "clicks" as primary extraction starts. In extreme cases it will result in the extractor popping off the case rim and the casing being stuck in the chamber.

In your specific case, I have a couple of observations. First, it could be that your Model 10 has a slightly oversized chamber, not that your other one is undersized. The best way to tell is get a factory loaded cartridge, or a new piece of brass and chamber it in the Model 10. My bet is that it will chamber fine.
Based on the pictures, my guess is that the mouth of the chamber was not chamfered correctly and there is a sharp edge. That is what is causing the scratches. Add in the fact that the fired brass you are using is a bit big just in front of the 0.200 line and you get what you see on your brass. That is very easily fixed if you want to do it yourself or have your gunsmith do it. Of course, once you start using brass for that gun exclusively, it should reduce to the point where it isn't significant.

 

[Texas Solo]

This is pretty obvious. Ammo used for years in rifle #1 won't chamber in rifle #2. What is different between rifle 1 and rifle 2?
THE CHAMBER.
#1 is loose or #2 is tight.
I'd bet on the latter.