"new" ripoff trimmer from Hornady

[3Ackleys]

Companies like Henderson and primal rights are easy targets for competition. I don't think this would be happening, if the Henderson were selling for $199.
But $800 for a tiny motor and a few dollars worth of parts? $700 for the CPS? Those prices exist only without competition.
I get they have initial costs etc. but charging the very most you think someone will pay, is going to bring competition.

Just one example, I recently purchased a Generac 3300i generator. It was $700- it has an internal combustion engine, an inverter generator, electronic controls, all in a portable package. The carburetor on this thing probably costs more to make than the Henderson trimmer or the CPS priming tool!

 

[urbanrifleman]

Are you comparing your barrel nut system to the Savage original or Remington (Remage) copy? How many more barrels would you sell if you didn't offer your barrel nut system?

Any product that is good, will be copied with a slight variation or improved to continue the sale. Hornady has always improved their products. This is the third version of their trimmers that I know of.

DJ

I did not invent barrel nuts. I am not sure I get your point.

To sell tires, I didn't have to invent the tire.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I did not invent barrel nuts. I am not sure I get your point.

To sell tires, I didn't have to invent the tire.

Your argument assumes legality but disregards right vs wrong.
In the case of tires and patent protections, I wouldn't attempt to patent the tire itself but what if I come up with a tread design that doubles fuel economy, for example?
Patents can't generally be vague, as in "trimmer for cutting brass casings". In his case, it is his design attributes that make it a better mouse trap that is patentable, imo.

Your example is a far reaching, generalized over simplification. Your logic may be legal but legal does not equate to morals.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Companies like Henderson and primal rights are easy targets for competition. I don't think this would be happening, if the Henderson were selling for $199.
But $800 for a tiny motor and a few dollars worth of parts? $700 for the CPS? Those prices exist only without competition.
I get they have initial costs etc. but charging the very most you think someone will pay, is going to bring competition.

Just one example, I recently purchased a Generac 3300i generator. It was $700- it has an internal combustion engine, an inverter generator, electronic controls, all in a portable package. The carburetor on this thing probably costs more to make than the Henderson trimmer or the CPS priming tool!

What stopped you from making(selling) them instead of Hornady? Too much money already? Better yet, why didn't you design it in the first place?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Your argument assumes legality but disregards right vs wrong.
In the case of tires and patent protections, I wouldn't attempt to patent the tire itself but what if I come up with a tread design that doubles fuel economy, for example?
Patents can't generally be vague, as in "trimmer for cutting brass casings". In his case, it is his design attributes that make it a better mouse trap that is patentable, imo.

Your example is a far reaching, generalized over simplification. Your logic may be legal but legal does not equate to morals.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was asked about barrel nuts... Which was a generalization, so I responded with one. I suppose whatever patent Savage had on their barrel nut expired decades ago. I made no comments on patents or the law.

I have two patents of my own, in the 25 years of being a mechanical engineer. I am very aware of patents. My roommate was a patent attorney. In my opinion, nothing in this thread would qualify for a patent, but I have made no statements about them either way.

Henry Ford invented charcoal briquets. Maybe Kingsford should write the family a check, huh? And the assembly line. Someone get a lawyer, I'm going to sue every car manufacturer in the world...

 

[jxb]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was asked about barrel nuts... Which was a generalization, so I responded with one. I suppose whatever patent Savage had on their barrel nut expired decades ago. I made no comments on patents or the law.

I have two patents of my own, in the 25 years of being a mechanical engineer. I am very aware of patents. My roommate was a patent attorney. In my opinion, nothing in this thread would qualify for a patent, but I have made no statements about them either way.

Henry Ford invented charcoal briquets. Maybe Kingsford should write the family a check, huh? And the assembly line. Someone get a lawyer, I'm going to sue every car manufacturer in the world...

I'm guessing this from pg7 and he's spot on based on that.

"new" ripoff trimmer from Hornady

I am not about to argue legal or illegal, but this sure smells dirty to me. Dirty can be legal, it doesn't make it right. And that is where it will come down to the public to decide if the changes are worth it. I have been using a Giraud for years and don’t plan to change but if I was I...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm guessing this from pg7 and he's spot on based on that.

"new" ripoff trimmer from Hornady

I am not about to argue legal or illegal, but this sure smells dirty to me. Dirty can be legal, it doesn't make it right. And that is where it will come down to the public to decide if the changes are worth it. I have been using a Giraud for years and don’t plan to change but if I was I...

forum.accurateshooter.com

Do a Google search for "reloading press"... Look at the "images" tab... Pages and pages of devices that look nearly exactly the same.

All reloading presses are copies of one another. NO ONE CARES... No one gets all bent... What is the difference?

 

[jxb]

Do a Google search for "reloading press"... Look at the "images" tab... Pages and pages of devices that look nearly exactly the same.

All reloading presses are copies of one another. NO ONE CARES... No one gets all bent... What is the difference?

View attachment 1600143

View attachment 1600144

View attachment 1600145

But following your lead... I wasn't talking about presses. We're talking about copying a custom and what used to be unique trimmer design with a few modifications. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it's morally and ethically wrong. If you want to defend that sort of behavior, all good. I'll simply shop elsewhere.

 

[shoot4fun]

I did not invent barrel nuts. I am not sure I get your point.

To sell tires, I didn't have to invent the tire.

OH NO!!!
You mean you "ripped off" the barrel nut idea????
(sarcasm)

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To sell tires, I didn't have to invent the tire.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was asked about barrel nuts... Which was a generalization, so I responded with one. I suppose whatever patent Savage had on their barrel nut expired decades ago. I made no comments on patents or the law.

I have two patents of my own, in the 25 years of being a mechanical engineer. I am very aware of patents. My roommate was a patent attorney. In my opinion, nothing in this thread would qualify for a patent, but I have made no statements about them either way.

Henry Ford invented charcoal briquets. Maybe Kingsford should write the family a check, huh? And the assembly line. Someone get a lawyer, I'm going to sue every car manufacturer in the world...

You used the vague and general analogy about tires quoted above, Bradley. So, why don't you know what I'm talking about? Try to keep up with what you say and you'll do better with understanding others' replies. Lol!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm guessing this from pg7 and he's spot on based on that.

"new" ripoff trimmer from Hornady

I am not about to argue legal or illegal, but this sure smells dirty to me. Dirty can be legal, it doesn't make it right. And that is where it will come down to the public to decide if the changes are worth it. I have been using a Giraud for years and don’t plan to change but if I was I...

forum.accurateshooter.com

It seems we are a selective bunch on this subject. Not long ago, SEB was copied..his rest design. The support for him was impressive. Almost if not 100% support from people on here saying they support him and his product and refused to buy elsewhere. Funny how that works with people.

Gonna stop on this subject because IME, talking about the knockoff only gives them free advertising and does little to help the person that did ALL of the HARD work.

 

[urbanrifleman]

But following your lead... I wasn't talking about presses. We're talking about copying a custom and what used to be unique trimmer design with a few modifications. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it's morally and ethically wrong. If you want to defend that sort of behavior, all good. I'll simply shop elsewhere.

I am not defending anything. I am just saying reloading gizmos, components, etc etc have been copied back and forth since the beginning of time. With ample evidence to show what I am saying is clearly the case.

I am not going to be a hypocrite. I was a design engineer. Everything is borrowed from something. I do notice that people want to throw their indignation around only when it suits and agenda they agree with... I try to stay consistent, if I can.

I am the last guy to support cheap copies of stuff. If it were up to me I would shut down China, Mexico, and every other third world hell hole from importing their crap into this country. But I am not a hypocrite about it. Gizmos get copied.

 

[urbanrifleman]

It seems we are a selective bunch on this subject. Not long ago, SEB was copied..his rest design. The support for him was impressive. Almost if not 100% support from people on here saying they support him and his product and refused to buy elsewhere. Funny how that works with people.

You just made my point.

 

[urbanrifleman]

You used the vague and general analogy about tires quoted above, Bradley. So, why don't you know what I'm talking about? Try to keep up with what you say and you'll do better with understanding others' replies. Lol!

Oh, I understand posts just fine. Just not yours.

 

[jxb]

If you're trying to convince yourself of your points, GLWT. Might as well stop trying to convince others because it's not working out so well.

This isn't about some big companies copying each other or copying something after the patent expires. Henderson's unit is a custom design that's quite unique, or was. I view it no differently than someone copying a work of art and calling it their own simply to profit off of it because they can.

 

[urbanrifleman]

If you're trying to convince yourself of your points, GLWT. Might as well stop trying to convince others because it's not working out so well.

I always find it interesting when someone posts in these forums referring to themselves as the arbiter of opinion and consensus.

 

[Ccrider]

The Hornady may encourage Henderson to move faster on producing a micrometer trim length adjuster. The Hornady will likely make Henderson more quality and price conscious. All good with me.

How are you guys defining “moral”? Here is a good definition: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

I don’t see this as a moral issue- right vs wrong/ goodness or badness. More like a business decision that has no bearing on ethics or morality.

And yes, I have a Henderson. I don’t plan to trade it in to buy a Hornady any time soon.

 

[jxb]

I always find it interesting when someone posts in these forums referring to themselves as the arbiter of opinion and consensus.

Actually I and others stated our opinions which last I checked we're allowed to have, then you went around attacking them. Pot meet Kettle...

 

[shoot4fun]

The Hornady may encourage Henderson to move faster on producing a micrometer trim length adjuster. The Hornady will likely make Henderson more quality and price conscious. All good with me.

How are you guys defining “moral”? Here is a good definition: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

I don’t see this as a moral issue- right vs wrong/ goodness or badness. More like a business decision that has no bearing on ethics or morality.

And yes, I have a Henderson. I don’t plan to trade it in to buy a Hornady any time soon.

WINNER!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cfshooter]

It seems we are a selective bunch on this subject. Not long ago, SEB was copied..his rest design. The support for him was impressive. Almost if not 100% support from people on here saying they support him and his product and refused to buy elsewhere. Funny how that works with people.

Gonna stop on this subject because IME, talking about the knockoff only gives them free advertising and does little to help the person that did ALL of the HARD work.

I will be the outlier here I guess. A SEB or a Henderson is not in my budget, but if I could buy one similar, and in my budget for said tool, I would. I am really not brand loyal to much, if it works and in my budget, I am fine with it. I do however support small and local businesses as much as I can, just doesn’t always work out with the shooting sport and tools.