Sniperhandle
Silver $$ Contributor
The 338 Federal is not a proprietary cartridge?
Spell Check is quick, Easy and FREE!
More crap I don't need - 8.6 Blackout edition.
- Thread starter LVLAaron
- Start date
Spell Check is quick, Easy and FREE!
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
@LVLAaron did you give up on this round?
I'm gaining some experience with reloading and have learned a bit about different dies and sizing. I have basically found it impossible to rely on cases to be consistent, at least not how Lapua has been for me in the past. I'm not saying the brass is not any good, just that it's not as consistent in the neck specifically.
I see a difference between the Sheridan and Steinel gauges, and once run through a resizer they do fit in the both gauges, but not always after a bullet is seated. For that reason I believe you need to turn the necks on all brass. I have Gorilla brass, Vairog brass, and Hornady 6.5 Creemdoor cases I have resized myself. None work perfect out of the box for me. As an example, after turning the necks sometimes it will fit in the Sheridan gauge, but not in Steinel. After running it through a sizer it will fit both. Possibly a half dozen out of 100 don't fit the Sheridan gauge when virgin. I don't have enough experience with the Vairog yet. The Hornady is a much tighter ID when resized for me. I thought the expander ball was supposed to elliminate that? Yet, it has to do with neck thickness vs. chamber size. I am finding that turning the neck wall to .010", allows bullets to be seated and fit in the chamber.
What did you ever figure on your milk dud problem with the bullet falling out the front of the barrel? Anything?
If you haven't revisited this, I don't blame you, but I still believe it has a lot of merit for my hunting needs, both in supersonic and subsonic.
I'm gaining some experience with reloading and have learned a bit about different dies and sizing. I have basically found it impossible to rely on cases to be consistent, at least not how Lapua has been for me in the past. I'm not saying the brass is not any good, just that it's not as consistent in the neck specifically.
I see a difference between the Sheridan and Steinel gauges, and once run through a resizer they do fit in the both gauges, but not always after a bullet is seated. For that reason I believe you need to turn the necks on all brass. I have Gorilla brass, Vairog brass, and Hornady 6.5 Creemdoor cases I have resized myself. None work perfect out of the box for me. As an example, after turning the necks sometimes it will fit in the Sheridan gauge, but not in Steinel. After running it through a sizer it will fit both. Possibly a half dozen out of 100 don't fit the Sheridan gauge when virgin. I don't have enough experience with the Vairog yet. The Hornady is a much tighter ID when resized for me. I thought the expander ball was supposed to elliminate that? Yet, it has to do with neck thickness vs. chamber size. I am finding that turning the neck wall to .010", allows bullets to be seated and fit in the chamber.
What did you ever figure on your milk dud problem with the bullet falling out the front of the barrel? Anything?
If you haven't revisited this, I don't blame you, but I still believe it has a lot of merit for my hunting needs, both in supersonic and subsonic.
I haven't tried the Alpha brass, but I have exchanged some email with them. I was trying to find brass that didn't need to be neck turned, but have since come to the conclusion that most all brass can use a neck turn to fit in the chamber properly. I have 11 rounds out of 80 that will not fit in the gauges, and I still want to do some testing and see if I pull those bullets, take a tad more off the neck and resize them if they will fit after a bullet is seated in them. Many of the cases just started to kiss the shoulder, so I'm thinking it wasn't enough.
I will go back up and look at your load data, I think I missed that. FWIW, I am using Accurate 1680 and/or CFEBLK. Please post on your 1:6.5 barrel when it comes.
Ok, I missed this...I do have some 300 SMKs, but am primarily focused on monolithics as I need to use them for hunting. Those top 3 loads look right in the money.
Since I can't use a suppressor, I'm primarily focused on supersonic, but I have a bunch of 285 grain Gorilla fracturing projectiles that look wicked in pics when used. For a long time Gorilla would only sell a limited amount of projectiles...which is how I got stocked up. I like the Barnes TTSX in 160, 185 and 210. Midway had an awesome deal on Barnes recently for Labor Day.
I'm thinking about building one of these. I may try prefered barrels as they list the 3 twist and aren't crazy lead times. I missed a chance at a reamer and kick myself for not getting it.
Ok, here's what I found out with Gorilla brass. I was able to take the neck down to about .009"-.010" on the neck. I had 11 rounds that wouldn't fit either the Sheridan or Steinel case. I pulled the bullets, decapped them and turn the necks. I ran all of these through the Hornady FL resizer and seated a 225 grain Hornady CX to 2.700. Aside from the 2 cases I destroyed getting the neck sizer set correctly, all the remaining 9 cartridges fit in the Sheridan gauge.
NONE of the 9 cartridges fit into the Steinel gauge. I'm not exactly sure what this tells us, other than the Steinel gauge, which they say works perfectly with thier brass, doesn't seem to work with Gorilla brass very well. I don't have any Steinel brass. The Gorilla brass was neck constrained with Hornady 185 and 225 CX, as well as Barnes 160, 185 and 210 TTSX. I'll pull these 225 CXs I used for testing and get some primers and powder in them to test at the range. This is more data that shows neck turning is mandatory, and sizing, on the Gorilla brass. I don't know who makes it for them. Anyone know?
Unfortunately the Steinel gauge is not like the Sheridan where the case is visible, so I don't know where it's hanging up, I'm guessing it's the neck, the cartridges stick out of the Steinel case by about .250".
The next brass I'm going to test is the Vairog, I have close to 100 pieces of that. I plan to load
EDIT: I don't get it. I have gone through and measured against the cartridge drawing, all the dimensions seem to be within spec, my bullet is about 337.5, but the drawing says +- .003, that would mean anything between .335 and .391 would be acceptable. Neck is .362, .004 smaller than spec. Case near shoulder .458, spec is .4639, .467 on the base of the case, spec is .4703 and bolt face is .4685 and .473 is spec. So I stumped (no surprise) that the cartridge doesn't fit in the case. It fit before seating a bullet, but neck seem well without spec...I have reloaded for a number of cartridges and have never seen or had the problems that 8.6 blackout presents.
NONE of the 9 cartridges fit into the Steinel gauge. I'm not exactly sure what this tells us, other than the Steinel gauge, which they say works perfectly with thier brass, doesn't seem to work with Gorilla brass very well. I don't have any Steinel brass. The Gorilla brass was neck constrained with Hornady 185 and 225 CX, as well as Barnes 160, 185 and 210 TTSX. I'll pull these 225 CXs I used for testing and get some primers and powder in them to test at the range. This is more data that shows neck turning is mandatory, and sizing, on the Gorilla brass. I don't know who makes it for them. Anyone know?
Unfortunately the Steinel gauge is not like the Sheridan where the case is visible, so I don't know where it's hanging up, I'm guessing it's the neck, the cartridges stick out of the Steinel case by about .250".
The next brass I'm going to test is the Vairog, I have close to 100 pieces of that. I plan to load
EDIT: I don't get it. I have gone through and measured against the cartridge drawing, all the dimensions seem to be within spec, my bullet is about 337.5, but the drawing says +- .003, that would mean anything between .335 and .391 would be acceptable. Neck is .362, .004 smaller than spec. Case near shoulder .458, spec is .4639, .467 on the base of the case, spec is .4703 and bolt face is .4685 and .473 is spec. So I stumped (no surprise) that the cartridge doesn't fit in the case. It fit before seating a bullet, but neck seem well without spec...I have reloaded for a number of cartridges and have never seen or had the problems that 8.6 blackout presents.
Last edited:
My understanding in this issue is that Q demands 1:3, but Hornady seems to want 1:5. Aaron mentioned he's getting a 1:6.5 twist barrel. I was finally able to get a response from Hornady, but they won't admit to wanting 1:5, so I'm not sure. There a lot of scuttlebutt on the street about twist. There is no denying the 1:3 twist. The results Brittingham gets in Africa are amazing. When I shot these at the range and they hit a steel target, it thumps like no tomorrow. I don't have a problem with the 1:3 twist, most of my problems are all to do with reloading.
Yes, some. I've run into a few issues, but all of these are going to the range soon. I will have 80 rounds to test. I used all Accurate 1680 in these loads, just to stay safe, that is pretty much the recommended powder, but a bunch of people shooting Lil Gun and H1000. I will test CFEBLK as it is so close in burn rate to A1680, and both are used in 300 blackout. Groups I was able to get are between 1-3 MOA, so I haven't got it dialed in just yet, although that will mostly kill a deer/pig at 100-200 yards.
Here's the last of the info, but nothing really new. After I trim the necks, and run through the resizer, none of the cases fit in the Steinel gauge, but all of them fit in the Sheridan gauge. This is also true after seating bullets, my loads are not near the allowable 2.825, some of mine are 2.700, some are 2.650 and some are 2.688. Those COALs come from the Faxon 8.6 blackout page. I had to create my own data for the Hornady 225 grain CX as they do not have a 225 listed for supersonic. I used the more forgiving 2.700 for it. There is load data for both 2.700 and 2.650, but the deeper seat is 50 fps higher. I will watch my LabRadar when I shoot them and check the primers.
I'm going to stay away from the Steinel and just stick with the Sheridan.
These are my test rounds, I have 80 in Gorilla brass. Left to Right, Hornady 185 CX, Barnes 185 TTSX, 210 Barnes TTSX, 160 Barnes TTSX and Hornady 225 CX. Probably won't get up to the range until Mon/Tues.
I'm going to stay away from the Steinel and just stick with the Sheridan.
These are my test rounds, I have 80 in Gorilla brass. Left to Right, Hornady 185 CX, Barnes 185 TTSX, 210 Barnes TTSX, 160 Barnes TTSX and Hornady 225 CX. Probably won't get up to the range until Mon/Tues.
Last edited:
Another option on brass is going to be Starline. There's a guy on YT who just got some Starline 8.6 blackout brass. I have used Starline for both 300 blackout and 6.5 Grendel, but not for 8.6 blackout. If you're interested, check out Kentucky Range Time, he's done a number of 8.6 blackout videos. He has seen the same problem going from 1st to 2nd firing on Gorilla brass. I'm attributing that to neck wall thickness with a seated bullet. Depending on the case it may not matter.
Now I know there must be some of you who are pondering, why not check the fit in your chamber, not the gauge...and the reason is that this happens after the case has been fired in the chamber. There are a number of known problems with AR rifles being overgassed on 8.6, but this is different, this is where the case either doesn't size and/or fit after it is reloaded from the fired brass. 6.5 Grendel never gives me an issue, no neck turning at all, shoots first time, after it has been fired, etc...just like 308, 6.5CM, 5.56, or 300bo...300 blackout did have issues years ago with gas also. With 8.6bo, one problem is that the adjustable gas blocks come set incorrectly for 8.6bo in many cases.
Is this round worth it? I still think it is. Not sure if an 8" barrel would be as viable as 12", but 12" is a beast. I'm looking forward to getting mine dialed in.
Now I know there must be some of you who are pondering, why not check the fit in your chamber, not the gauge...and the reason is that this happens after the case has been fired in the chamber. There are a number of known problems with AR rifles being overgassed on 8.6, but this is different, this is where the case either doesn't size and/or fit after it is reloaded from the fired brass. 6.5 Grendel never gives me an issue, no neck turning at all, shoots first time, after it has been fired, etc...just like 308, 6.5CM, 5.56, or 300bo...300 blackout did have issues years ago with gas also. With 8.6bo, one problem is that the adjustable gas blocks come set incorrectly for 8.6bo in many cases.
Is this round worth it? I still think it is. Not sure if an 8" barrel would be as viable as 12", but 12" is a beast. I'm looking forward to getting mine dialed in.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Looking at your photos of the gauges, it shows the strengths and weakness of each one. Not passing the Steinel,can probably be confirmed in the Sheriden.
The problem with the cutaway in the Sheridan is that every now and then a flaw ends up in the slot. Could be concentricity or slight diameter. Good news is you can often see it.
The shoulder on the brass is poorly formed, it does not fill the gauge, yet the base is almost at maximum length, minimum headspace. Part of The reason appears to be the transition from case body to shoulder. Note the bright ring. Look like the case was either rotated in the gauge, or the sizing die only contacted there.
Looking at the case and loaded round in the Steinel and the way it’s cocked to one side, looks like a concentricity issue or confirms the same ring in the Sheridan. A diameter issue that is not tapered. More of a bulge because the case rocks on it.
If your having misfires, that’s probably the reason. A false contact point that does not support the case enough when the firing pin strikes. The whole cartridge moves instead of popping the primer.
If you like the Gorilla branded bullets in their loaded ammo, you might look at Maker bullets.
Yes, could very well be the dies I'm using. My Redding FL sizer was sent back to Redding. I'm currently using a Hornady FL sizer, it seems to work ok on the Sheridan, but not the Steinel.
I have never ran into this issue with 300 bo or 6.5 Grendel with short barrels. I have never shot any Gorilla ammo, I have only purchased their brass and projectiles. I have a couple hundred 285 grain fracturing projectiles. For Grendel using 100 grain and 120 grain TTSX, and for 300 bo using 110 CX. I've seen good results with the maker projectiles on YT (what does that mean?). They have a 220 grain projectile that looks interesting, but it's about 2x the cost of Barnes or Hornady. I do have some Barnes 280 grain LRX in .338. Those could be deadly subsonics. After I get the supersonics dialed in, I'll look at those.
My dilemma is this...I don't have issues with 6.5 Grendel using a 12" barrel. It is also quite a bit lighter than 8.6 as the LR-308 weighs quite a bit more than the AR-15 (mini-action). But do I want to be in a situation with the Grendel and a black bear? I think it would handle one, but would feel more comfortable with 8.6bo.
I have never ran into this issue with 300 bo or 6.5 Grendel with short barrels. I have never shot any Gorilla ammo, I have only purchased their brass and projectiles. I have a couple hundred 285 grain fracturing projectiles. For Grendel using 100 grain and 120 grain TTSX, and for 300 bo using 110 CX. I've seen good results with the maker projectiles on YT (what does that mean?). They have a 220 grain projectile that looks interesting, but it's about 2x the cost of Barnes or Hornady. I do have some Barnes 280 grain LRX in .338. Those could be deadly subsonics. After I get the supersonics dialed in, I'll look at those.
My dilemma is this...I don't have issues with 6.5 Grendel using a 12" barrel. It is also quite a bit lighter than 8.6 as the LR-308 weighs quite a bit more than the AR-15 (mini-action). But do I want to be in a situation with the Grendel and a black bear? I think it would handle one, but would feel more comfortable with 8.6bo.
Would you please share the specs on the Mos-Tek barrel you had them build?
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.