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Thurro clean every time?

Really? I had no idea the throat erosion happened that quickly!
It's been my experience - even before using Thorroclean. I think a lot has to do with how hard you are pushing the loads and how fast you shoot your strings of fire. I have no evidence to back this up, but I believe even if you baby your barrel as much as possible, you're not going to see THAT much of improved barrel life. Of course you can take this to extremes and burn out a barrel in one sitting, but I'm talking about normal competitive use.
 
It's been my experience - even before using Thorroclean. I think a lot has to do with how hard you are pushing the loads and how fast you shoot your strings of fire. I have no evidence to back this up, but I believe even if you baby your barrel as much as possible, you're not going to see THAT much of improved barrel life. Of course you can take this to extremes and burn out a barrel in one sitting, but I'm talking about normal competitive use.
My understanding is that 'rapid fire' - shooting more than a round a minute - will erode the throat ~ 2X.
 
I dont think some of you are following what I said. I said to find touch on a clean barrel, before you use your abrasive. Then find it again after you use your abrasive. If your moving the touch point every time you clean your barrel, on top of its natural erosion your shortening your barrels accuracy life. Not by a little either. Maintaining a sharp throat is important when your after 0 and 1s. Thats why a set back restores accuracy, the throat is sharp again, its not because you cut out bad rifling. So use your brushes and solvents until they no longer get the carbon out. Then use your abrasive, and keep it in front of the lead. The lead is not where the carbon builds up so dont pull the patch back that far every stroke. Just work the area with the carbon.
I have found this scenario to be true over three rifles this year. My theory is the heat damaged metal in the throat and lead are softer than the rest of the barrel and are peeled off with each stroke of the abrasive. I thought it was crazy that after using thorroclean my touch moved .015 after 100 rounds in a dasher. That was a polishing session that took the barrel back down to new looking. So Alex is it best to use abrasives once groups open up or some other scenario?
 
I think its crazy to use an abrasive on a fresh barrel. When a barrel has a low round count they clean up pretty easy, no need for abrasive. As they get some rounds on them it gets harder to get them clean. At some point you will have to use an abrasive. Just be smart about it and it will not hurt a thing. Your cleaning process will have to change as the barrel changes. You will have to get a little more aggressive. Running over that perfect sharp square throat with an abrasive on a patch that drapes over the sharps square edges of that throat we work so hard to cut perfectly is like finger nails on a chalk board. That barrels as good as its going to get when it leaves the shop. Your not making it better with a soft lap. A real lap is the shape of the bore and maintains it. A patch over a brush or on a jag rounds everything off.
I used to be a much more frequent user of abrasives. So were my customers. It took a few years but I did notice that that real peak accuracy wasnt lasting as long as it used to. We had switch brands of abrasive. Now Im talking guys that have broken a bunch of records so you can actually pick up on this small stuff. As soon as I said to stop with the abrasives, that peak accuracy fall off issue went away. 100% we were shortening the peak accuracy life of our barrels.
 
I think its crazy to use an abrasive on a fresh barrel. When a barrel has a low round count they clean up pretty easy, no need for abrasive. As they get some rounds on them it gets harder to get them clean. At some point you will have to use an abrasive. Just be smart about it and it will not hurt a thing. Your cleaning process will have to change as the barrel changes. You will have to get a little more aggressive. Running over that perfect sharp square throat with an abrasive on a patch that drapes over the sharps square edges of that throat we work so hard to cut perfectly is like finger nails on a chalk board. That barrels as good as its going to get when it leaves the shop. Your not making it better with a soft lap. A real lap is the shape of the bore and maintains it. A patch over a brush or on a jag rounds everything off.
I used to be a much more frequent user of abrasives. So were my customers. It took a few years but I did notice that that real peak accuracy wasnt lasting as long as it used to. We had switch brands of abrasive. Now Im talking guys that have broken a bunch of records so you can actually pick up on this small stuff. As soon as I said to stop with the abrasives, that peak accuracy fall off issue went away. 100% we were shortening the peak accuracy life of our barrels.
Alex, thanks for taking your time to weigh in.. much appreciated. I believe I read that Montana Extreme Copper remover and bronze brushing works good… that may have been from you. Is that true? I am working my way through my first barrel 6BRA and bought a bore scope around 500 rounds and wow did I ever have hard carbon. Bought Thorrounclean and it really worked. Just retired and shooting 150-200 rounds at 1000 per week….. Ive upgraded much of my reloading practices.. competents etc. Adjusting the cleaning process as the barrels ages seems to make the most sense. Appreciate any response in advance. Gil
 
I think its crazy to use an abrasive on a fresh barrel. When a barrel has a low round count they clean up pretty easy, no need for abrasive. As they get some rounds on them it gets harder to get them clean. At some point you will have to use an abrasive. Just be smart about it and it will not hurt a thing. Your cleaning process will have to change as the barrel changes. You will have to get a little more aggressive. Running over that perfect sharp square throat with an abrasive on a patch that drapes over the sharps square edges of that throat we work so hard to cut perfectly is like finger nails on a chalk board. That barrels as good as its going to get when it leaves the shop. Your not making it better with a soft lap. A real lap is the shape of the bore and maintains it. A patch over a brush or on a jag rounds everything off.
I used to be a much more frequent user of abrasives. So were my customers. It took a few years but I did notice that that real peak accuracy wasnt lasting as long as it used to. We had switch brands of abrasive. Now Im talking guys that have broken a bunch of records so you can actually pick up on this small stuff. As soon as I said to stop with the abrasives, that peak accuracy fall off issue went away. 100% we were shortening the peak accuracy life of our barrels.
Hey Alex,
While I'm not as well spoken nor am I a 'smith I do agree with you on "fresh barrels" not needing TC, during my cleaning process using Bore Tech I'll inspect the barrel and "normally" (really don't think there is a normal) after 500 rounds or so is when I use TC, sometimes before and sometimes later in the life of the barrel, I hate carbon rings and carbon in the grooves & on the lands. So I do what is necessary to clean it up.
 
For those of you using Thurroclean, do you use it every time you clean? Or is it too aggressive for that? Thanks
I use it every other cleaning which means once every 100-120 rounds. That seems fine to me as it’s on the cusp of letting carbon build too long vs. over-use of abrasives…and I’m not sure that there is any harm in using every cleaning so long as good rod technique and a good 2 piece tight fitting bore guide is used. In my opinion, it’s not these mild abrasive bore cleaners that cause damage but rather improper technique while stroking bore or non-use of a good bore guide, etc. the damage that some claim to have suffered at the hands of abrasive bore cleaners possibly would have seen the same damage if no abrasive was used. YMMV
 
For my 223 barrels that see 40%+ 'rapid fire' shots 10 shots in 60-70 seconds], they erode 2-3 thousandths/100 rounds.
They eroded 2-3 thousandths before I started using an abrasive every cleaning and after I started using an abrasive at each cleaning.
In other words with your particular abrasive used coupled with good rod technique, the throat is not advancing faster with your abrasive use.
 
I just spent two hours cleaning a barrel, Bore tech C-4 & Eliminator and 250 passes with a bronze brush . Does this barrel look clean ?
Pic 3080 looks like my barrels.....until I use JB or Iosso which I do every 100 rounds or so (FTR) to remove the black lines, almost ridges, of carbon. WipeOut/PatchOut gets me to about the same place as your Pic 3080, then I need to use JB if not Iosso.
 
Does this barrel look clean ?
We need to remember that picture through a bore scope is magnified a LOT, I've never been about to get the carbon out of the groove corners, the throughclean does an excellent job, I've started using it after a match, I tested some bullets the other day, cleaned at the range and when I got home looked at the barrel through the scope and couldn't believe how bad it looked, 45 minutes later using the through clean the barrel looked "almost" new (it is a new barrel with 201 rounds).
 
get the carbon out of the groove corners
I've found using Iosso/Flitz on a really tight fitting patch on a parker hale jag will get all the way into the corners. I use a lubricant to help the patch get into the bore.
I had to experiment with different size patches. I finally found doubling over an appropriate for bore sized patch worked best. I got this idea from another forum member. He mentioned using some bore paste to get the patch to stick to itself when it's doubled over. Then apply the bore paste and wrap it around the parker hale.

That said, I've found it takes significantly more work to clean to the corners each time than to clean so 2/3 - 3/4 of the middle of grooves are clean each time.
 
I've found using Iosso/Flitz on a really tight fitting patch on a parker hale jag will get all the way into the corners. I use a lubricant to help the patch get into the bore.
I had to experiment with different size patches. I finally found doubling over an appropriate for bore sized patch worked best. I got this idea from another forum member. He mentioned using some bore paste to get the patch to stick to itself when it's doubled over. Then apply the bore paste and wrap it around the parker hale.

That said, I've found it takes significantly more work to clean to the corners each time than to clean so 2/3 - 3/4 of the middle of grooves are clean each time.
Agree. There was a video some time ago about this, I think one of Speedy Gonzales', - allow the new clean patch to extend past the end of the PH jag by about 1/3 its length, smear the inside of the patch that extends beyond the tip with Iosso/JB then fold it back over itself and the jag, roll the patch in the normal way around the jag and smear the outside of the patch. The top 1/3 forms a sort of bulb that gets down into the grooves and corners.
 
Thurro clean is amazing. This is after only about 5-7 minutes cleaning my 03-A3 after an afternoon of shooting.
Before:
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After:
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My understanding is that Thorroclean is just Iosso in solution. So, if that’s true, then one would be using an abrasive at every cleaning. I clean with solvents and patches after every range trip , usually 20-30 rounds a session. No metal brushes and some JB bore paste every 300 rounds or so. Barrels are not pristine but I stay ahead of the carbon build up.
 
Thurro clean is amazing. This is after only about 5-7 minutes cleaning my 03-A3 after an afternoon of shooting.
I’m with you, I love it and I personally think it’s the greatest cleaner available for my use. I use it every time I shoot my rifles and I use it to take them back to bare metal. Whether I’m practicing, doing load development or after an F Class match. If I shoot them 5 times testing or 80 times in a match TC is going down my barrels on a losso nylon brush a couple calibers oversized. That takes care of the carbon ring during the cleaning and I hardly ever have to readdress it after the barrel is back to bare metal. I check with a bore scope after each secession to see when it’s clean. It saves me so much time and my time is fairly limited. I’m not shooting.01’s or .02’s I’m just shooting midrange F class matches and my barrels are still good enough to shoot clean targets. I understand it’s abrasive. But I also understand when accuracy falls off I’ll replace the barrel. All my hunting rifles gets cleaned every time I shoot them with it as well, so does the rifles I plink with. I use it and I love it. I have a stock pile of it. If it works for you use it. Everyone has different needs. My needs are to clean my rifles in a few minutes and spend more time with my family. And Thorough Clean makes that happen for my application. It might not fit the needs of others and I’m okay with that too. I can clean my rifles after a match in less time than it was taking me to let patch out and accelerator soak for the first application. If it takes 100-150 shots off of the life of my barrels I’ll gladly give that up for the time it saves me. But contrary to what everyone is telling me…. With my rifles…. And with my cleaning process…. I’ve not seen it over multiple barrels. Maybe others have. It won me over after the first 15 strokes and looking with my bore scope.
 
Going through an short range group agg. I have had barrels that shot their best very clean, and barrels that seemed to tighten as they got a little dirty. I never got more than three matches on a barrel before a patch cleaning that involved a lot of short stroking, reserving a second cleaning that included bronze brush work for lunch break. Some of this comes down to what powder and how much per charge. I was using 133, which did not seem to have hard carbon issues, given that I did a lot of bronze brushing.

On the other hand, when LT32 came out, I noticed that while not bad, it would require occasional use of IOSSO, not every time, but if one did not, it would eventually catch up with you. A friend, who exclusively used LT32 in his 6PPC found that using IOSSO about every 100 rounds seemed to prevent any accuracy loss due to hard carbon, and he got decent accuracy life on his barrels doing that. One thing that I do not want is to polish away the lapped finish, since that would cause jacket fouling issues.

Many years ago I read an interview of Tony Boyer which included his cleaning practices. Back then he shot T, and used a nylon brush full of IOSSO to clean the back 8 to 10 inches of his barrels, cleaning between every match. I believe that this was because T required it. This was before the advent of the hard nylon brushes.

Since that time, I have used the more ordinary black nylon brushes for IOSSO, but only infrequently. Friends that I have told about this method have used it without any issues on an as needed basis.

I think that using brush that does not put much radial pressure on the bore is the right approach.

Last year, when I had run out of IOSSO, I ordered Thorroclean and Thorroflush. I use the same kind of brush, wrapped with a square patch for the Thorroclean and find that it removes a lot of black for the number of strokes, but I still only use it on an as needed basis, which is more often for H4895 in my 6BRA because of the fouling of that powder. When I clean, I am not looking for a spotless mirror finish, which I believe that is a pit that new bore scope users can easily fall into.
 

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