F-Open: 300 WM?

[davidjoe]

These just arrived. The 115 DTAC HBN coated has been one of my favorite bullets and if David Tubb is equally demanding with the 299, these will shoot very well. There’s not a lot published on these. David has these pegged at .845, which I hope is right, observing that’s a lot higher than the 300 grain bullet Sierra sells. (Sierra’s box bullet would basically perform in drift like a 195 from a .284 with Reloader 25, which is an expensive way to get the same drift, when the terminal energy is immaterial).

The change of caliber plans for next week is due at the surface level to those two blowups, but beyond that, it’s only about a break even proposition so far for my string fire aggregates, in most range conditions, so other than having 900 rounds ready, which will get used, I’m not feeling a downside. One of my most accurate barrels is a 5R .338.

By this afternoon, I will have a comparison between these DTACS in gusty wind, and already loaded Scenars and A-Tips. The Fclass / benchrest stocks are a no-go for the .338, they were tested multiple times, in multiple versions, above, and were less accurate than angled butt stocks steered from the rear and secured by the body and rest in the traditional way. It’s an aside, but I feel they are only equally accurate, in small calibers. I do give them the ease of use and low chance of crossfire advantage, as I shot the target left of me last week with an angled butt.

I’ll have a .284 with 195’s, saum, and 338.





Edit: they deserve an unrushed development. A few that were soft jammed shot a good group, then a tall group, while the Lapua’s remained flat.

 

[davidjoe]

Having shot my first match with an M1A, I’ve experienced the extremes of 1,000 yard slow fire prone matches.

Guys in my age group and younger may wonder, but with no intention to ever try to find out, what impressions one gets between sling shooting a vintage battle rifle design, which only slightly modified the WWII M1 Garand, when F-Open gun shooting has been the frame of reference for many years.

I’ll share my thoughts, because as explained below, this may be the one-off chance, as I may not shoot the M1A more at 1,000 yards.

Sling shooting is divided up into more categories than F-Class, and occupying the most restricted, ground level rung would be “service rifle,” meaning, it had to be one. The M1A like the M1 is one of our most revered battle rifles, and while the sentimental favorite and universally owned, what we see die hard service rifle shooters actually use in matches is their AR-15 platform rifles, whether they view them as interchangeable soulless tools, or not. Especially as they lend themselves to the heaviest modern bullets while M1A’s absolutely don’t, there are practically unbroken lines of black rifles in every service rifle match except the CMP’s annual dedicated M1A match, that excludes anything else.

In preparing myself, as an owner of both, but match shooter with neither, I watched countless match videos, talked to past state champs, and made the conscious decision to try the rifle that meant more to me.


Support Systems:



The Rules intentionally hobble the already challenged accuracy potential of service rifles, while playing to the strength of F-Class rifles. To explain, the M1A’s greatest utilitarian strength is its ability to hold and fire many rounds successively, through grime and adverse conditions.

Not happening. We must manually pick up and force into the magazine one round at a time, then release the bolt. In testing slow fire from my loaded magazine versus one round individually loaded, I shot better without disturbing my hold. I’d liken this choice to a V8 programmed with full-time permanent cylinder deactivation; granted, this is only an issue in service rifle prone slow fire matches, as other courses of fire utilize magazines in a stage.

Next, I have watched the black and white M1 training videos from the War Department, I believe it was. Interestingly, shooting with a sling was considered an improvement over the lack of one, but never is it maintained that a sling was preferable to other support. Sling proficiency probably aspires to equal a central bag or ruck sack best case, and that is with experience, some strength and the expenditure of concentration and effort. Matching a front and rear support would be unrealistic, for the best there are.

While promoting and preserving skill of utilizing a small, inexpensive multi-use canvas sling is worthy, when in combat service the use a more expensive bipod or other rest by all was impractical, by the time the accoutrements of a thick rubberized mitt and reinforcing jacket are factored in, and they do help, the purity of the strap idea is diluted a bit.

To get this benefit, a jacket and undergarment are worn. Shooting the service rifle even though prone approaches a form of exercise because:

1) more muscles are tensed that increases heart and breathing rate,

2) it’s hard and requires more concentration to see with a 4x scope,

3) it’s hot and restricted in gear.




The F-Open support system is unabashedly about letting the gun shine, the person’s out of the picture. The gun can be more rigid and heavy, needing no magazine cutout. The Open gun may have a 4 ounce or less trigger, and if it is set at 4 ounces, that is 1/18 the minimum pull weight of a service rifle trigger.




Two 30 caliber bullets, 155 class and 250 class. The M1A is subsonic at 1,000 with 175’s. Houston air has the double whammy of no elevation and high humidity. There was no crack heard by the target pullers and their neighbors in the pits.




The M1A shoots a 175 that starts at 2,580 and slows down probably 1,500 FPS, the most deceleration I have ever observed in 1,000 yard shooting. 900 FPS is more typical of an open cartridge bullet combination. This translates into roughly 2.5 times the hold off value between the two guns.
Service rifle is fascinating. The rules cap the capabilities by general adherence to original design, but then they cap even that performance once more by how you must hold and load the rifles, such that how well these guns could really shoot, is not known nor desired to be known, in favor of determining how well the person and gun, shoot together.

Contrasted with TR, there truly seems to be a flip between the cartridge of choice, favoring the .223, and that is interesting. I do believe my AR is easier to hold steady by reason of how it is made and that the pistol grip thumb up, or at least more up, position is more ergonomic, and that’s why, in addition to losing to an AR with heavies, I’d be using mine at 1,000 if the circumstances come up again.

 

[Ned Ludd]

FWIW - the 175 probably slows down a lot more than that:



One approach might be to use a lighter, faster bullet with a much higher BC, such as the Sierra 169 gr Matchking or Berger 168 Hybrid. In the case of using a .223 Rem with heavies, how would this fit into the match loading/cadence as you described above? Unless one has a rifle with a modified magazine, .223 Rem rounds with heavies will likely be much longer than typical mag length.

In any event, thanks for the post, very interesting! BTW - those are both very good looking rifles!

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

@davidjoe Good for you to have done the deed. I didn't get a chance to see you shoot this past weekend, but what a weekend to pick for an inaugural outing with the M1A. The wind was something else, but you put on a good performance.

Just as a bit of history; the M1A dominated Camp Perry until about 1996 when the USAMU showed up with M16s and 80 grain bullets and took over. By my last attendance at Camp Perry, it was berm-to-berm AR-15s with stainless steel 20-inch barrels and 80-90 grainers.

 

[davidjoe]

FWIW - the 175 probably slows down a lot more than that:

View attachment 1436956

One approach might be to use a lighter, faster bullet with a much higher BC, such as the Sierra 169 gr Matchking or Berger 168 Hybrid. In the case of using a .223 Rem with heavies, how would this fit into the match loading/cadence as you described above? Unless one has a rifle with a modified magazine, .223 Rem rounds with heavies will likely be much longer than typical mag length.

In any event, thanks for the post, very interesting! BTW - those are both very good looking rifles!

Thank you, Ned, I’m making the trek back this weekend to shoot the club’s LR match, this time in Open.

You raise another good point about an additional advantage of the AR platform.
The M1A bolt holds itself open on an empty magazine, but it doesn’t have an actual bolt release button like the AR does.



The AR, can bypass the magazine with a long round that is dropped into the port but would not fit in the magazine.

Originally though, the sole release button is on the left side only, and especially with this scope going higher and base’s tightening knob protruding under the handle, there would be no way to release it with the right hand. (The left hand is pretty well committed to the fore end, trapped under the sling, and if one wears those bulky mitts, that button is inoperable.)



That little lever operable to the right hand thumb/finger in the trigger well is a lifesaver on my carry handle upper and starts on the opposite side by “clamshelling” the original left side piece, and wrapping around, letting either hand drop the bolt. I also put on an ambidextrous magazine release button.

But the M1A lacks the feature of dropping the bolt with a button, and also, it won’t close by “bumping” it or with the momentum of pulling it back a little further and releasing it if the follower is all the way up. It will close with a bump push, or more reliably with a small pull back and release with one round in. The other way to release the bolt is to push down the follower and remove fingers quickly.



The follower prevents closure.



The lever on the back (left) side can hold the bolt back if there is no magazine inserted, but it won’t release the bolt if the magazine is inserted.

I do understand from others that the top round in an M1A could be over length because the nose is higher than the magazine walls. But in the AR you don’t have to push the round into the magazine at all, and that is a much easier operation. I have often “misfed” that M1A round by inserting it too far back, requiring clearing and starting over.

Edit: agree on the higher BC bullets. That 175 SMK was something I had access to and I was pleasantly surprised how they grouped in some testing.

I should have pointed them, though. The 90’s are what would be hard to contend with. The state winner this last weekend shot tipped 90’s, 4/5 matches, and in the one relay where he tried 85.5’s the score was lower.

The M1A can be modified with parts that allow less gas pressure to develop, but I don’t know if I want to get into all that. As TT mentions above, the SR ranks seem to have decided. Presently, I have very good 7, 8, and 9 twists, but no 6.5.

 

[Ned Ludd]

So shooters using a .223 Rem w 90s are single feeding? I've been playing around with a load in my Sig 556 DMR for AR Tactical. It doesn't have to be mag length, but single feeding and closing the bolt manually is a little more trouble than using a bolt gun in F-TR. It also adds the concern about "cooking" a round too long in a hot chamber if you chamber a round and then see something you don't like on the flags. Nonetheless, it's really not that big of a deal.

BTW - I didn't mean to usurp your quote box. It just happened and I was too lazy to re-type the message.

 

[davidjoe]

Yes, apparently the 90’s can’t be loaded to magazine length, but I’m not sure it’s impossible. I am presuming that Berger 90’s are the ones being discussed, and from what I have seen and heard, a round with 90’s is just dropped in the port like a single round in a push feet bolt action rifle.

I’m also interested in AR tactical, I just wish it would extend to 1,000. The rules seem to confine it to midrange although I hear that CMP is already permitting it at 1k. Matches nearer me are NRA sanctioned, so it would compete in TR, where it would be like a TR gun entering Open.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Yes, apparently the 90’s can’t be loaded to magazine length, but I’m not sure it’s impossible. I am presuming that Berger 90’s are the ones being discussed, and from what I have seen and heard, a round with 90’s is just dropped in the port like a single round in a push feet bolt action rifle.

I’m also interested in AR tactical, I just wish it would extend to 1,000. The rules seem to confine it to midrange although I hear that CMP is already permitting it at 1k. Matches nearer me are NRA sanctioned, so it would compete in TR, where it would be like a TR gun entering Open.

I would not even attempt to load the mighty 90 VLD to mag length; IMO it would hamstring the performance and completely undermine the main reason for using such a bullet.

FWIW - I recently started working up a load for AR Tactical with my Sig 556 DMR. A friend and fellow F-TR shooter in the area and I talked about it, and it seems like it ought to be fun. The local AR Tactical matches are held with the Highpower group, rather than the F-Class group, presumably because the F-Class group doesn't have the correct target faces. In any event, I'm finding that loading for an AR is different animal than loading for a bolt gun. Further, there are some odd rules in AR Tactical that I don't quite get. For example, 10-, 20-, or 30-round magazines are required, but magazine "sleds" are prohibited. The shooter has to single feed, so why should a mag sled make a difference? Regardless, I'm finding that my 556 DMR with its 18" 8-twist barrel may not be ideal for shooting at 600 yd. The rifle has reasonably generous freebore, but the velocities possible with relatively light bullets and only an 18" or 20" barreled AR aren't that great, so wind deflection is going to be a lot more than I'm used to with an F-TR rifle. The scoring ring size will offset that a bit, but I expect I'm going to get schooled in windreading the first few times out. I would probably not consider taking this rig out to 1000 yd. If I were going to do that, I would opt for a ballistically more favorable cartridge from the larger calibers allowed. Even from a limited exposure, I can already see where it would be relatively easy to specifically design/set up a rifle optimized for this shooting format, something those behind this format apparently wished to prevent or minimize. There's just no getting away from the arms race. LOL

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

From my SR days, I remember (vaguely) that there was a magazine in which you could load the long 80 and 90 grainers,. I was never able to find one. The 20-round mag only held 8 to 10 rounds and they were at an angle with the base of the cartridge stuffed in the middle groove at the rear of the mag. Rarer than hens' teeth.

 

[davidjoe]

Better that it come from me than from someone else who saw it, but Hornady may need to take a box or two of these 250’s and string fire them, to recontemplate the jackets. I’m using 5R Bartlien barrels which are probably the gentlest available. I’m loading for 10+ shots per case.

In my WM 300’s first use of the day, (third match) on a 2 sighter string, guys at the Louisiana long range saw 4 of these not make it past 200 yards, in a 20 shot string. Quite a few were done and started watching after the first one or two.

The weather conditions were mild and the firing line is covered. The blowups also raise another issue we have talked about in threads under the rules. We are using Shotmarkers this weekend and there are the occasional no reads, randomly scattered it seems across all gun types.

There hasn’t been a consecutive no read that I have seen. The NRA no read reshoot rule to my thinking is a problem for a) the unexpected shot whole target frame miss, like trigger grazing, b) the half load squib shot, and c) blowups. I don’t doubt there were 4 seen, but what if there is just one, and only one guy sees it, or he merely thinks he saw it? What if he’s certain he saw it but the shooter is certain he saw berm dust rise.

It’s a tough issue. In my mind this is the biggest rule departure from pulled targets. I would be 100% fine protesting my own score today for an additional -40, on the third match, but I don’t think the rule should have to rely on guys volunteering to do that. The problem is that etargets will let a bullet by undetected every so often, and we have all seen it. A particular electronic flaw is compounding to cover for other physical errors and gear choices.

Back to the bullets, it’s not a fluke I’m seeing at this point or an isolated suspect box, nor an iffy gun phenomena. The bullet line is a valuable addition to our choices, but the jacket alloy could be toughened up at its same thickness and weight, imo by tweaking the component metals.

The 300 WM is at the smaller end of what shoots this bullet, (.308 TR notwithstanding). My gun today did not make it to double digit shot count before the issue arose.

 

[Sandstorm]

Wow...bummer for sure.
I completely agree with the fact that this is a big gray area and not good at all.
No easy solution but to switch bullets as Im not sure how fast a mfg will respond to this issue.
I too have seen the missed shotmarker round and not bullet related either.

 

[searcher]

I got excited about creedmoor but it’s “add to cart” for back order only. Small print says out of stock. I did that for saum brass a pretty long time back, and still waiting.

WM is not in stock everywhere that sells it, either, in fairness. But bullet central had Lapua and graf had Peterson L. I was honestly surprised Lapua picked up the 300 WM case. I can imagine that Lapua + 300 PRC is a combo that will be like waiting for Christmas, always.

My guess is they picked up military contracts for it.

 

[davidjoe]

LET’S GO BIG RED!!

F-Class nationals are just around the corner. Yeah, I blew your bullets up recently, but since then, we have made up.



Ok“Rocket Science”, - you’re going to this dance, ready or not. My 600 club is by Space X and my 1,000 is by NASA. Hello, “you had me at” … .878.

You wanna make a 30 cal that looks like this (above) next to the highly revered, long range 175 SMK, I’m in. Please Ben, let the the wind blow.



You're not getting another chance to blow up. These 1,000 yard F-sticks, - one black on carbon black Manners and one McMillan, will shoot Surgeons through Bartleins and be cooled meticulously, cleaned religiously, and loaded reasonably. No superformance speeds required - the wind must blow, but the bullets cannot.



One of these days, Hornady, two things are going to happen, your podcast boys are going to learn what F-Class is, and you and they are going to be actually present, and on the ground in front of your tent, seeing what that word “match” on you bullet boxes means out in the sunshine in string fire.




The other thing is that this sponsorship relationship we have, - you ship it somewhere and I buy it, - we can discuss further. After I get good, of course, that is .

 

[Bodhisafa]

LET’S GO BIG RED!!

F-Class nationals are just around the corner. Yeah, I blew your bullets up recently, but since then, we have made up.

View attachment 1482868

Ok“Rocket Science”, - you’re going to this dance, ready or not. My 600 club is by Space X and my 1,000 is by NASA. Hello, “you had me at” … .878.

You wanna make a 30 cal that looks like this (above) next to the highly revered, long range 175 SMK, I’m in. Please Ben, let the the wind blow.

View attachment 1482869

You're not getting another chance to blow up. These 1,000 yard F-sticks, - one black on carbon black Manners and one McMillan, will shoot Surgeons through Bartleins and be cooled meticulously, cleaned religiously, and loaded reasonably. No superformance speeds required - the wind must blow, but the bullets cannot.

View attachment 1482877

One of these days, Hornady, two things are going to happen, your podcast boys are going to learn what F-Class is, and you and they are going to be actually present, and on the ground in front of your tent, seeing what that word “match” on you bullet boxes means out in the sunshine in string fire.


View attachment 1482879

The other thing is that this sponsorship relationship we have, - you ship it somewhere and I buy it, - we can discuss further. After I get good, of course, that is .

View attachment 1482898

How do you like the manners vs McMillian for f class?

 

[davidjoe]

These stocks both perform, abandoning the heavy 3-way butt plate to make weight, but they take different approaches.

The McMillan is capable of putting a high percentage of the gun’s entire weight on the front rest.

This is because the fore end is short and the rails run back very far. Keep in mind that maybe .4 inches or so is all that one of these 10kg rifles actually moves back, when held.

I don’t think the rear bag needs to carry much weight, and we can supplement it anyway with our cheek pressure; it (the butt stock) is actually steering the rifle under recoil, because it’s in the front of the backward traveling rifle.

The action pulls the trapped fore end rearward, under recoil, but it pushes the butt stock into your shoulder.

In my mind, it is easier to reliably pull a load in exactly the direction where you want it to go, which is straight back, than to push it there especially if the load is trapped.

Imagine a semi backing up its trailer in reverse. If the steering decisions aren’t analogous, then imagine a rubber band driven propeller plane’s path, with the propellor in the rear, or a wandering train of pushed grocery carts.

If the front rest seems more assured than rabbit ears of guiding mass, then you reach the same conclusion (entrust more mass to it) whether the push / pull argument is convincing to you, or not.

By this reasoning, more weight on the front rest and less on the rear, is slightly preferable. And the McMillan further nestles into the bag with its rails. Again this is simply the like the guy who picked up the 2” x 12” x 10’ near its middle, instead of the front end.

However, a long wheel base has the advantage of making your joystick inputs smaller, (more finite resolution with the long Manners) and the same load feels like it has tamer recoil in the Manners F-class, for reasons I’m not certain of.

Lastly I feel that rifles that don’t put a lot of weight on the front rest, jump around in it a little more, especially if you add cheek and shoulder pressure to the already heavier rear.

All said, I can make either of them work but getting up close and personal with the front rest is easier with the short stock, rather than stretching out my limbs, more.

 

[davidjoe]

To illustrate just how close you can come to getting all the weight of the rifle on the front rest with the McMillan. Without my heavy action and tapered barrel, a more typical Fclass rig would balance inside the rails.





Then for comparison, the Manners rifle would put all weight in the front rest, only if rode the bags here, on the belly rib instead of the flat, which is obviously impossible:



This is a very significant difference. The difference could be a negative or a positive, or nothing at all, in what we do. Beyond theory. I don’t know, but I think that the observation of small differences can help us analyze them.

 

[davidjoe]

Green card, personal best at Ben Avery in Phoenix, self-coached at 1,000, and…. yellow card, ump calls strike three, DBacks beat this visiting lone Texas Ranger’s shooting iron. Yep, three M’s being as cautious and careful as I could be. But I may have started the day with a barrel that was actually too clean. (Edit: the green card was good for 10th HM).

The 3 M’s happened in the morning. The next match had 1 M - no dust rose. No need to challenge. The third match, in the hottest part of the day, no blowup, and I shot, albeit very slowly, my best score at the desert’s range, in what we would agree is a statistically significant sample size, as proven by my odometer.

And what’s more, I shot some liners. This is the whole goal, to save 9’s, and by golly it did.

Can the blowups be mitigated? Yes! Cracking this code may prove to be as hard as just becoming a better wind reader, but there’s no law against trying to do both at the same time.

Here’s the thing, Red isn’t the only color that had an issue, yesterday, so don’t judge too harshly. Is a 199 rarified atmosphere, heck no it’s not, a 200 is not, but, I’m not a good string fire shooter. The fact that I have so much headroom in individual string scores lends a certain kind of realism to any improvement in my outcomes, lol. Now back to figuring out how to throw up berm dust, every shot.

 

[davidjoe]

Hexagonal Boron Nitride, HBN. Hornady Bullet Necessity “HBN.” I haven’t lost a Win Mag bullet since nationals, experimenting with it, further.

I had previously tried it simultaneously with bare bullets that were not blowing up, and got away from it, considering it an X factor in barrel cleaning. Minor consideration, in hindsight.

A .308 shot tighter with HBN than without. I haven’t blown up a 250 in a .308 but tighter groups and a cooler barrel are welcomed.

The bullet in the .308 tried something new. I added a couple of drops of gun oil to the HBN and 100 bullets being coated.

As compared to the Win Mag, with only powder, I believe it increased adherence as the neck clearly attempts to wipe it clean, in any case.

Magnum-BC Max-super heavy combinations did not get unique copper jackets and Fclass heats barrels. There’s a real story between these lines about nationals.

I doubled down on my supply since the bullet blowups, seeing what they can do for me.

 

[Sandstorm]

Let us know how they work out in competition.
I wish you luck.

 

[davidjoe]

A few weeks ago two 8.5 Twist 5R barrels were completed, and quickly chambered.

They are shorter and slower than the original 8 Twist 5R’s. These barrels have not blown up a 250. I do still use HBN and string shoot rather slowly, but getting past no-reads or blowups is a milestone.

I will next bear down on more precise change weights. I shot only these bullets in Lodi, through both new barrels. Most of my point drops were to low velocity rounds interspersed in my ammo that were 55-65 fps off the average. This target had the least point drops and it is too many, but velocity is curable.

We expected rain and I used only flat bottomed stocks. I have a setup that I feel shoots tighter with an angled butt, hard hold, and Seb Max, but a wet pinch bag with the oils those accumulate is not accurate and I didn’t take any of that. This is where covered lines become really nice to have.

The velocity is down from the earlier posts. That’s a result of barrel heat avoidance. I ordered more barrels in Lodi for these bullets. The bullets are now possibly just good charge weights away from a clean target. My sense is that once that threshold is reached, it won’t be an anomaly.

My thoughts presently with these bullets are: don’t try going faster than 8.5 twist with these; use H-1000 instead of Retumbo; don’t drop the velocity lower than shown at the 1,000 yard target below. Shooting them faster may not be problematic in an 8.5 twist, but presently I’m content to not worry about blowups. I do spray down the barrel during strings and at the end of the string, I can carry the rifle by the barrel with one hand, and that’s a rather important goal for all the guns we shoot.