25-06 reloading - brass failures

[cmc308]

I am looking to see if anyone has input regarding any noticed anomalies in their 25-06 brass after the first firing. I have recently cycled through some 25-06 factory ammo that I have had for a while, shot it with no issues noticed, reloaded and nearly every case had some sort of failure noticed upon inspection after ejection from the second firing, or failed during sizing ops in prep for a third firing.
I believe this may be a long shot trying to conclude the failure mechanism given the age of the rounds, but I do not recall 25-06 being excessively hard on brass. The ammo in question was approximately 3 years old. As stated, it was factory loaded ammo, fired once, reloaded conservatively, typically always around base load or less due to the sheer speed this round produces once you start moving up the load ranges. Case failure rate was around 75% of my total case count of 100 cases, the remaining 25% was discarded on principle. Any takers on this subject? Here is some load data, the failure noted, and the basic rifle spec/info -

Rifle-
Remington 700 Sendero 26" brl 1/10 twist

Powders-
IMR 4831 @ 41gr - 43gr laddered - case mouth split, shoulder crack on one case, hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2500 fps
IMR 4350 @ 41.2gr - 41.4gr case failure - case head sep, case web split, shoulders crack, hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2357fps
H 4831 @ 42gr primers pushed, case mouth failure, hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2500 fps

Hornady 11th edition base loads -
IMR 4831 46.9gr estimated vel 2800 - page 304 in Hornady 11th edition
IMR 4350 45.7gr estimated vel 2800 - page 304 in Hornady 11th edition
H 4831 47.4gr estimated vel 2800 - page 304 in Hornady 11th edition

As you can see the by the load recipes produced in comparison to the Hornady 11th ed loads, they are very much under base since I was working on a ladder load experiment. It appears that all the failures noted point to over-pressure. I am offering this to compare notes with anyone who wants to comment with knowledge. I am fairly well ready to settle on the fact that maybe I just hit the faulty brass lottery in big form. The rifle was checked for head space with nothing to note on that piece. Can anyone speak to how many reloads they have gotten out their 25-06 brass in the past?

 

[358WCF]

My 25-06 has been very particular about what it likes, but works fine. Even with crappy 20+ year old Remington factory loads, the brass has been fired numerous times without loss. I'm too lazy to dig thru my records for the exact number of firings, but it's in excess of 5. I also have some newer PPU & some older WW brass that is going on 8-10 firings. All this in a Rem. 700 factory chamber with off the shelf standard RCBS dies.

Your case problems are many & varied. Pictures are worth more than vague descriptions. Cracks or splits are usually caused by old, tired, or over worked brass. Body splits may be from extreme pressure, brass fatigue... or even incorrect ammunition. Unsure what a web split looks like. Case separations (circumferential splits) are always caused by firing with excessive headspace whether from a too short factory round, excessive resizing, a long chamber, or some combination of these. Hard bolt lift may or may not be pressure related... how hard is hard? Do you grease the locking lugs during maintenance/cleaning?

Guessing from the data that you're using 100 gr bullets? What did you use for OAL?

It looks like you're reducing the start charges by c.10%. Never ever reduce starting charges with slow burning (4350 & slower) powders. Search or google "secondary explosion effect". It's never happened to me, but is apparently a very real phenomenon. How sooty were the outside of your reloaded cases after firing?

Maybe it is a lousy lot of brass, but maybe not.

 

[Larry Koch]

What bullet weight. I remember shooting 105 grain bullets over 3200 fps. It shot like a laser.
something isn’t right.

 

[jwink]

I have easily got 12 to 15 reloads on cases that are pushing 30 years old with absolutely no issues, shooting IMR 4350 95 % of the time, 100 to 120 grain bullets. Still using them. Rifle is a Ruger 77

 

[std7mag]

I think your problem is due to the low powder charge.
As 358WFC mentioned, there is a secondary spike in pressure that can occur with low charges.

I try to load to at least 85% case fill.
On the other side of the coin, i tend not to load over 104% case fill.

 

[cmc308]

For these indicated failed case loads I am using 100g bullets at the recipes provided. The purpose of this exercise of reducing loads was due to another case failure situation at published recipes using the same projectiles although for a different brass lot. The failures were minimal, probably around 10 of 50 cases exhibited some "concern" for future use so to say, and to be honest that probably should not have prompted me to drastically reduce the loads the way I did, but I did so as a cautious approach... probably did more harm than good.
I am hearing the "never reduce slow powder" statement, I understand and don't dispute.
To the sooty question - The cases were not sooty at all or abnormally sooty accept for the one case that had a lower-case split or split in the case web (area just above the case base inner curve). Further regarding "sooty", even the cases that had mouth splits or cracks noticed after ejection, were not gaping wide cracks, though they were cracked sufficiently enough to see them readily.
For OAL measurement I used the Hornady OAL gauge on a modified case.
To point of "hard bolt lift" - the same hard bolt lift experienced in an over pressure situation. The rifle is maintained and cleaned frequently and adequately in my opinion, but now that you point it out, I will review my approach on that piece as well.
To the point of over-worked brass - I do not disagree. I do anneal my cases periodically, though I did not feel that annealing the cases after one firing was called for. I have no basis to argue frequency of case annealing. I am simply matching annealing frequency based on some pro shooters that I follow and the little info I can gather from them along the way. I am open to hear from folks on annealing frequency or point me to another established thread and I will go read it.
As it regards the low powder charge, I agree without dispute. That statement matches the input of a local gunsmith in my area, and it tracks with some recent reading I have been doing on the subject. I am going to return to the published base loads again using the 100g projectiles and start the process over; settling on the potential that maybe my cases from the very first round of minimal failure prompting load reduction, had some defects that alluded me when I reloaded them. As it regards pics of the cases, I will dig through my discarded case box to see if I can find a few examples to post here for pics. The thought of pics never crossed my mind. I will try to make that happen next time, but honestly, I hope there is no next time like this. I am happy to receive your input. I appreciate it. Thank you

 

[jepp2]

I believe this may be a long shot trying to conclude the failure mechanism given the age of the rounds, but I do not recall 25-06 being excessively hard on brass.

A lot of key data is missing. What was your case head to datum length of the factory loaded ammo, the case head to datum after it was fired, and after you sized it? Case head separations are most often caused by excessive growth of the case during firing.

I have shot a lot of 25-06 rounds and never experienced what you have. I use the powders you list and many others. 2 of the rifles I shot were Senderos, one the early version, the other the newer version. I mostly shot 100-115 gr bullets at near max velocities. The 25-06 is SAAMI rated for 65K PSI. So it tends to run at a high pressure than many other rounds. The shallow shoulder angle and allow greater case growth during firing than rounds with a steeper shoulder. But case life has never been an issue for me. BUT, I only size the rounds for my rifles with 0.001" clearance between sized and bolt contact.

The hard bolt lift is a major indicator. You failures seem to span a multitude of issues. And your 75% failure rate is really strange.

I am currently using Lapua brass in my 25-06, mainly because it was more consistent than the other brass available. Since it started life as 30-06 brass my case capacity is slightly less, so I adjust my loads accordingly.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

I once had a 243 rcbs die that was not made correctly. It overworked the brass and I would get case head separations quickly.

Switched to a different, newer rcbs die and the problem quit.

I sent the bad die in and rcbs quickly replaced it with a new one.

Don't know if that's your problem but definitely don't overlook the die being bad.

 

[cmc308]

Jepp, you have got me.. I did not take the time to make or record any of those notations of datum length before or after. I will now be more methodical going forward. To your point about using Lapua brass... I am not using such great brass yet in my experimentations. I am not saying that my brass is just inherently bad because it is not Lapua, its just an added piece of info.
To clarify the 75% failure rate - basically if it has any anomaly that I can see with my bare eye(s), I then put it under a digital microscope connected to my computer. If at that point I cannot rule out the (thing) I am seeing, then I remove it from my reloading batch. That may be a bit harsh, but presently I am a trying to err on the side of caution. Of the 75% brass failures I threw out, I am confident in saying that most of those did indeed have some level of crack or separation that made me think twice about moving forward with the load of that case. I just simply do not have enough knowledge to make a decision to use questionable brass, and maybe the word "questionable" is up for debate, but I will be an observer only for that debate.
Now, in reviewing my notes from past years and looking back over my brass bins, I am now beginning to think that at some point my once fired and multi fired brass may have become conjoined. But even if that is the case, my notes only indicate that my most used cases were only fired 4 times that I can see. But at this point, I am simply open to input.
As a point of disclosure - I am only two years back shooting and loading after a 12 year hiatus, so I am still re-learning my craft, and discovering some old errors along the way. I too have not had any issues with 25-06 brass during loading, prior to my 12 year hiatus.
To the point offered by CE Smith - I am not convinced that my dies are bad so to speak, but I do recognize your input and it will be used to evaluate my tools. However, I would be interested in learning how you zeroed in on that problem with your dies Mr. Smith.

 

[dellet]

The age of the brass has nothing to do with the failures, unless stored in a highly corrosive environment.

Stored loaded rounds is a different story. The bullets welding to the necks can cause high pressure. Ammo stored long enough in poor conditions can develop neck splits just sitting on the shelf.

What is the age of the powder, is it left over from 12 years ago?

What was the failure during the sizing process?

You said you checked headspace, did you size your brass accordingly, or screw the die down to contact with the shell plate +, creating maximum headspace?

Did you chamfer the case mouth, maybe a bit too aggressively?

Did you check your scale calibration?

Just some things that stood out as missing information that could help explain what happened.

 

[Kittitas George]

The one time I had pressure problems with my 25-06 was due to improperly stored powder. I got some 4831 that had been stored in a Mason jar. I had a hard time finding the problem. I was using 1961 military match brass. I don't remember the amount of powder, the bullet was 120 gr. Sierra. I think I changed to a Reloader powder, no problems. I just don't remember, it was over 55 years ago, maybe closer to 60. The rifle is a pre war M-70 and was done before Rem. made it a standard caliber. I haven't had any brass problems since, but I did trade off a bunch of that Match Brass, dog gone it.

 

[cmc308]

Dellet, the stored rounds were approximately three years old as far as I can tell by the date applied on the box.. though I have no idea of age other than that. All ammo whether 12-year-old remnants is always stored in what I believe to be a very good environment.
The powder is not from 12 years ago. No way. All powder from 12 years ago was given away when I moth balled the operation 12 years ago.
The age of the powder at the time of loading was 18 months old according to the date I applied on the outside of the jug for just such tracking purposes.
The failures, some were noticed after firing, some were after sizing. I believe my previous posts are in fact misleading and I see the error in my delivery... 75% failures were not those coming out of the rifle post firing. Of the failures noted above in the previous post - they run as follows:
IMR 4831 @ 41gr - 43gr laddered - 1 case with case mouth split, 1 case with shoulder crack, 2 cases hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2500 fps
IMR 4350 @ 41.2gr - 41.4gr case failure - 1 case head sep, 1 case web split, 2 cases with shoulder crack, 3 cases with hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2357fps
H 4831 @ 42gr 3 cases with primers pushed, 1 case mouth failure split below opening or hemorrhage, 1 hard bolt lift - chrono high rdg 2500 fps
After firing, there was definitely a sizing induced failure on the whole.
Regarding the max headspace question - The die was threaded to touch, backed off until slight touch, little to no cam over on the press handle.
Further regarding headspace, on the rifle, that was checked by my gunsmith as a general inquiry with Go No Go gauge. There was not an effort to put a decimal number on that particular piece with the aim being to size the brass. Maybe I should have been more detailed on that piece.
Chamfering - you may be on to something there. I don't exactly have the gentlest touch in this area. I will review my technique and make adjustments. I am probably doing too much in this area. That had not crossed my mind previously.
Scale calibration was confirmed, reconfirmed on two additional scales.
Regarding missing information - I really do not know what to share. I have always been a hermit reloader. I am not very good at the whole forum thing.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

Jepp, you have got me.. I did not take the time to make or record any of those notations of datum length before or after. I will now be more methodical going forward. To your point about using Lapua brass... I am not using such great brass yet in my experimentations. I am not saying that my brass is just inherently bad because it is not Lapua, its just an added piece of info.
To clarify the 75% failure rate - basically if it has any anomaly that I can see with my bare eye(s), I then put it under a digital microscope connected to my computer. If at that point I cannot rule out the (thing) I am seeing, then I remove it from my reloading batch. That may be a bit harsh, but presently I am a trying to err on the side of caution. Of the 75% brass failures I threw out, I am confident in saying that most of those did indeed have some level of crack or separation that made me think twice about moving forward with the load of that case. I just simply do not have enough knowledge to make a decision to use questionable brass, and maybe the word "questionable" is up for debate, but I will be an observer only for that debate.
Now, in reviewing my notes from past years and looking back over my brass bins, I am now beginning to think that at some point my once fired and multi fired brass may have become conjoined. But even if that is the case, my notes only indicate that my most used cases were only fired 4 times that I can see. But at this point, I am simply open to input.
As a point of disclosure - I am only two years back shooting and loading after a 12 year hiatus, so I am still re-learning my craft, and discovering some old errors along the way. I too have not had any issues with 25-06 brass during loading, prior to my 12 year hiatus.
To the point offered by CE Smith - I am not convinced that my dies are bad so to speak, but I do recognize your input and it will be used to evaluate my tools. However, I would be interested in learning how you zeroed in on that problem with your dies Mr. Smith.

It was a head scratcher at first, but all I did was take the die out of the press, pulled out the decapping stem and turn it upside down while holding it in my hand and I took a piece of new brass and dropped it into the die and noted how far down the brass went into the die.

Then took a new die and did the same. The brass dropped in way further into the new die compared to the older one that was causing problems.

At this point, it was clear that the older die was resizing and squeezing the brass down way too early and also too tight.

 

[cmc308]

It was a head scratcher at first, but all I did was take the die out of the press, pulled out the decapping stem and turn it upside down while holding it in my hand and I took a piece of new brass and dropped it into the die and noted how far down the brass went into the die.

Then took a new die and did the same. The brass dropped in way further into the new die compared to the older one that was causing problems.

At this point, it was clear that the older die was resizing and squeezing the brass down way too early.

Ok. And RCBS clearly concurred with you apparently if they sent you a new one no questions asked, I presume. Well, as it relates to my dies, and all other great advice I have received through this thread inquiry... I will be more cognizant of what I am doing. It's been great to be back shooting and loading again, though the re-learning curve has been very costly at times. But nothing has blown up and I have both eyes, and my face doesn't look like it's been shot with buck shot, so I will definitely improve. Thanks all.

 

[cmc308]

Added piece - I did some case gauging using the Hornady headspace comparator set. I tested factory loaded rounds from Hornady, Remington, and Winchester. The numbers of those factory rounds are as follows
Hornady 2.041, Remington 2.043, Winchester 2.041.
I found some fired cases and these are the numbers as a batch prior to sizing:
2.055, 2.055, 2.052, 2.050
The same cases after sizing:
2.040, 2.039, 2.040, 2.038

 

[dellet]

Added piece - I did some case gauging using the Hornady headspace comparator set. I tested factory loaded rounds from Hornady, Remington, and Winchester. The numbers of those factory rounds are as follows
Hornady 2.041, Remington 2.043, Winchester 2.041.
I found some fired cases and these are the numbers as a batch prior to sizing:
2.055, 2.055, 2.052, 2.050
The same cases after sizing:
2.040, 2.039, 2.040, 2.038

There’s a place to start, way to short at the shoulder. Factory ammo is generally at minimum, or below SAAMI, you are sizing to shorter than that. .015” is a lot of stretch.

Almost like you bumped the shoulder back .002” from original, instead of fired length. Instead of fitting to the chamber.

A quick look at the drawings and minimum would be 2.0456 at .375” diameter on the shoulder.

 

[cmc308]

There’s a place to start, way to short at the shoulder. Factory ammo is generally at minimum, or below SAAMI, you are sizing to shorter than that. .015” is a lot of stretch.

Almost like you bumped the shoulder back .002” from original, instead of fired length. Instead of fitting to the chamber.

A quick look at the drawings and minimum would be 2.0456 at .375” diameter on the shoulder.

Yeah, I see it, and agree. Man o man it is always the little things that will kill ya. I had the information right there in front of me the whole time and it just never made it past the skull. Well, I shall go back the bench and re-think my inks. Super appreciative of this.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Be aware that likely your comparator numbers are not an actual measurement like the SAAMI drawings. In no way would I setup a sizing die based on matching SAAMI measurements to comparator "measurement".

 

[451whitworth]

This has nothing to do with the 25-06 but more to do with factory ammo quality from the last 5+ years. I have let friends/acquaintances check the zero on their deer rifles at my private range before season the past few years. These are not guys who handload, only buy a box or two of factory ammo every fall. My stipulation is that they give me all the empty brass when finished. Most is 30-06, 308, 243, 30-30, etc. I can't believe how many cases out of a box of twenty have split necks, pin holes in the shoulder/neck junction, and creases in the case body. I'm not impressed with the current brass quality from domestic ammo producers.

 

[cmc308]

Be aware that likely your comparator numbers are not an actual measurement like the SAAMI drawings. In no way would I setup a sizing die based on matching SAAMI measurements to comparator "measurement".

Understood. I will be checking and double checking. Thank you.