Benefits of a tuner

[Alex Wheeler]

I want to start a discussion here. This is not about how tuners work or how to use them. Specifically I would like to hear your opinions on how a tuner benefits your shooting. Do you think it gives a wider tune window? Do you think it stabilizes poi? Do you think it shoots smaller? Do think the barrel stays in tune longer? Do you think it gives a warning before going out of tune? Do you use it to keep the rifle in tune? ext. The reason I think this will be interesting is I have talked with a lot of guys that implement tuners, theres a wide range of answers here. Id like to see if theres a consensus. I have used them on and off for about 15 years. I cut barrels every week for them. Most people agree on how to use them for the most part. Most do not agree on the benefits. Guys at the top of their games have very different opinions here. So lets hear it. Might be good to include what discipline your in. Thanks

 

[LVLAaron]

 

[LVLAaron]

F-Class here. I personally only dabble with them. I do my normal workup and tune before I touch the tuner. I do believe it helps with "the tune" of the overall rifle... but I'm not the guy to fiddle with it in the middle of a match... I think some amount of it is wizard piss, but I do see a benefit.

 

[quest450]

IMHO it is a pure junk hanging off the end of a barrel, totally worthless in 600/1K benchrest game and a waste of $$$, if you can't tune a barrel with powder charge, seating depth and neck tension a stupid gizmo ain't gonna help you but I can see how desperate some shooters can get if they can't tune.....IT IS NOT A MAGIC PILL !!!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

F-Class here. I personally only dabble with them. I do my normal workup and tune before I touch the tuner. I do believe it helps with "the tune" of the overall rifle... but I'm not the guy to fiddle with it in the middle of a match... I think some amount of it is wizard piss, but I do see a benefit.

By "the tune" your saying you can get it shooting smaller with the tuner?

 

[LVLAaron]

By "the tune" your saying you can get it shooting smaller with the tuner?

I think so. If nothing else, moving the tuner does change the shape of the groups.

For F-class, I'd rather have a 2 inch group that's perfectly flat, than a 1.5 inch group that's a perfect circle. Maybe not that exact difference in numbers, but you get my drift.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I think so. If nothing else, moving the tuner does change the shape of the groups.

For F-class, I'd rather have a 2 inch group that's perfectly flat, than a 1.5 inch group that's a perfect circle. Maybe not that exact difference in numbers, but you get my drift.

Still trying to understand, so you can change the shape with the tuner in ways you cant with other things like seating or powder?

Different topic but Id rather have a 2" vertical group with zero width for F Class.

 

[sdean]

Still trying to understand, so you can change the shape with the tuner in ways you cant with other things like seating or powder?

Different topic but Id rather have a 2" vertical group with zero width for F Class.

Put a bullet from center on the 10 ring then move it up 2 inches. Might be a 9 now. Plenty in fclass go for good Waterline. Personally I like a round group.
I always figured 2 inches of horizontal will put you outside of 10 ring too.
Tuners take a lot of practice and record keeping. I find you can do more with neck tension,seating depth and powder charge than you can with a tuner.

 

[LVLAaron]

so you can change the shape with the tuner in ways you cant with other things like seating or powder?

The tuner can potentially help affect the shape, in my opinion. Since my range trips are limited, having a spinny bit on the end of my barrel is a lot easier than adjusting other things.j

+1 to what @sdean said.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Put a bullet from center on the 10 ring then move it up 2 inches. Might be a 9 now. Plenty in fclass go for good Waterline. Personally I like a round group.
I always figured 2 inches of horizontal will put you outside of 10 ring too.
Tuners take a lot of practice and record keeping. I find you can do more with neck tension,seating depth and powder charge than you can with a tuner.

I totally understand that mentality. But the 2" vertical group wont move as much as the flat group. Like I said totally different topic.

 

[foxguy]

Following, Looking forward to this discussion. I suspect a tuner becomes even more important when shooting distance.

 

[quietburp]

I have found that weight on the barrel can change things. I do not have a tuner but I have a muzzle brake. But that is mostly for recoil management.

I tried one of those cheap Limbsaver rubber donuts and man, that was horrible. By the time I was fed up with it, the barrel was hot, I was at a public range (indoor) without enough time wrench off the brake and slide it off. It was cheap, so I carefully cut it off with my knife.

Even with a hot barrel, the groups got down to 1 MOA.

I watched the Hornady podcast on tuners. They had said that tuners improved groups but only by the same amount that brakes or some suppressors improve groups. That is, weight on the end of the rifle is helping but changing settings was not helping. It is important to note that the Hornady guys shoot a lot of rounds. And by that, I mean a LOT of rounds.

I agree with others in this thread. Handload management does more for group size reduction than the tuner. Even if you could set a tuner and just use factory, you are still going to have some dispersion because of the variance in factory ammo. And Hornady could not find any setting on the tuners that provided smaller grouping. Basically, a point of diminishing returns.

For me, I will just stick with the brake, and if I can swing some cash loose, a suppressor. And mainly for hunting.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I have a tuner on my 223 ftr rifle. I have been asked what it does - looks cool.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have been using tuners for roughly 15 years, maybe a bit longer. I am not sure what my original intent was but my first where on 6ppcs when I still shot some IBS. I soon moved into mostly groundhogs type shoots usually between 100 and 500 yards. My goal was back to back .1 groups at 100 and 1.0 at 500 yds. Yes I did that with 6ppcs. I quickly found out having a tuner sitting stationary changed nothing. I was fascinated with what happened on a target as I moved the tuner in 30 degrees bumps clockwise and watched groups change in size, shape, and position. When I repeated on a second target and the result was mirrored to where many of the holes lined up, I became a believer. Over the years I have used the tuner 1 time to make a barrel competitive. I have used it a couple times to round up groups, I like round groups. But I have used it mostly when I feel the gun is going away from me to get on top of my tune. My tuner life started right before I found the 6BRX. Put together they made me a pretty tough out. I have won a lot of different matches over the years and am usually competitive. Without what I learned a tuner could do for me I would have had less success and burned through more barrels and components.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Upon experimenting, much like JEFFPPC did, I could see that a tuner can indeed effect size, shape and position of my groups. Once I find a good load through the right powder charge, seating depth and neck tension, I find my tuner does a good job of refining the load a little bit better. Then, when I get to know specifically just how the different settings of my particular tuner effects my results on paper, it helps me keep results on paper more consistent when conditions change effecting POI.

My tuners worked so well on my center fire guns, I tried one on a rimfire. I couldn't find any distinguishing benefit on my rimfire. But that's mostly probably because it's not really a real high end one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mattt]

all the tuners I run are on benchrest 22l shooting top shelf ammo, when you get new lot of ammo you do a tuner test after 20 groups pic the best 3 retest got your tune During the test you will see groups open and close as you go. Tuner wont make a bad bench 22lr shoot good but will make a good one better

 

[Terry]

I started using the Mike Ezell tuner several years ago. When I got my first one I did my seating depth and powder charge test without it, and then again with it. Everything I tested shot smaller with it. At 100 yards a zero setting yelds a one hole group, two marks one way gives 00, two marks the other way 8. I have used it successfully in F Class and Benchrest. I do tune on the fly when I think that it will help.

 

[LVLAaron]

Some anecdotal things I've picked up from different places. I wouldn't share it if I thought it was just lore, people I trust, some first hand info, etc etc.

1. I don't think a tuner on a 2moa factory gun is going to do much. If the gun is shooting poorly, there's a reason, and it will continue to do so unless you find/fix the problem. Also, you wont notice or care if a 2moa rifle is "tuned" to be 1.75 moa. But if a .5 moa gun can be "tuned" to be a .4 moa gun, the shooter notices and appreciates it.

2. I believe tuners can enhance the capability of a "premium" rifle. The 2moa factory rifle has problems, the finest BR/F-Class rifle probably doesn't... every small input you give a quality rifle, can make a difference, or perhaps a more pronounced difference.

3. The right tuner for the job. I have a 16 inch HV barrel. It shoots great. Heavy stiff barrel - and a 1 ounce tuner doesn't do jack on that rifle. On the other hand, a heavy tuner on a 30 inch barrel is too sensitive.


Sorta off topic: It drives me crazy when people claim tuners are "thoroughly debunked wizard piss" because a couple of people tested them (incorrectly, IMO, and according to the manufacturers) and then talked about statistics and blah blah blah tuners can't possibly matter. - On that same note, how is any load data relevant when applying the same statistical rules? I'm not smart enough to have that debate, I only pretend to be an engineer from 8-5. - I don't say any of that to argue for or against tuners.. just a gripe.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Really fascinating and disappointing in a way, because of the lack of understanding that still exists out there. I'll reply, but I'm just gonna watch for now. I'll say this much now...I ONLY do tuner orders by phone because that's the only way I can go over everything I need to get across as well as answering questions as we go before taking anyone's money. I refuse to put up a web store to take your money until we talk it through in great detail and I convey that I am more than willing to read the results of my tuner test, that frankly, shows you everything you need to know. The rest is semantics, as most people don't care why...they wanna know HOW to make a tuner work for them, so that's what I do and why.

When I said this is disappointing to see, it's because of all the time I spend doing business this way, yet still seeing so much misunderstanding left. The flip side is..there's room to grow and I keep doing just that. I've probably sold triple of my next closest competitor and it keeps getting better in spite of there being about 20 new tuner makers in the market.

I'll keep on doing it this way and I'll try my best to help anyone that cares enough to pick up the phone and ask. Too many of these discussions turn into pissing matches already. Phone is old fashioned but it's still the best for a lot of things. And as time allows, I welcome fellow shooters to my private shop/range for in person tutorial. I don't say what I do on the interweb and go hide behind a keyboard. You're all welcome here. Well...there might be about two that should stay away from me....but they're welcome too! Lol!

 

[Acyr]

100% believer in tuners here.
I use it to keep my rifle in tune as needed if the temperature increase during the day starts putting my rifle out of tune.