Ladder testing question

[DLT]

Is it common while shooting a ladder test that the shots from a higher charge will impact the paper lower than a low charge did ? I was carefull in my loading and keeping things in order and while coloring the tips with the corresponding charge weights and the order I shot them. Wind was a steady tail wind with some gusts. Spotted the shots through a spotting scope and the sharpies stood out great on the target so no confusion as to which shots was which. I understand maybe where one shot could go high or low just not the whole group and I understand the barrel whips

 

[Rocketvapor]

What does a Tail/Head Wind (with gusts) do to POI?

 

[DLT]

What does a Tail/Head Wind (with gusts) do to POI?

I’m assuming it would change it. I usually just shoot moa steel targets . Trying load development at distance on paper with a ladder test hoping to try and learn something. I learned sharpies go great on white paper for keeping up with charges. There was only 1 group out of the 6 that impacted out of place. I’m Not a competitor or have a couple or 3 grand in my rig as it’s still factory currently. I get on a kick and want to try different things hoping to put more knowledge in my noggin

 

[Straightshooter1]

Is it common while shooting a ladder test that the shots from a higher charge will impact the paper lower than a low charge did ? I was carefull in my loading and keeping things in order and while coloring the tips with the corresponding charge weights and the order I shot them. Wind was a steady tail wind with some gusts. Spotted the shots through a spotting scope and the sharpies stood out great on the target so no confusion as to which shots was which. I understand maybe where one shot could go high or low just not the whole group and I understand the barrel whips

It could have something to do with Positive Compensation (start looking at 1:00:35 in the video) . . .

 

[kyotekiller25]

It happens on occasion, but it's not typically normal no. It could be any number of things. Rifle doesn't like the powder/bullet combo, rifle isn't accurate, you pulled the shot, etc.

The thing with ladder testing is you really need an accurate rifle to begin with in my opinion to validate the info you get from it, otherwise you can just be chasing your tail. And the further the better. I do all my ladders at 300 yards, but a lot of guys do them at 600 or 1K as it's easier to see the flat spots or nodes, whichever you prefer. I've found 300 does a decent enough job to get a good starting point anyway. Then there are still some guys who say ladder testing doesn't prove anything and all you're data is completely meaningless because it's only 1 shot. Well that's why you usually shoot groups after the ladders to see what they do.

There are a lot of ways to come up with a load these days and none of them are neccesarily the right or wrong way. It's all subjective to one's opinion at the end of it. As long as you find something that shoots the way you want, who cares how someone else does it. Do what works for you. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error, but there's nothing wrong with a little extra trigger time anyway.

 

[RegionRat]

What distance?

At closes ranges, the secondary modes can show up.
The first and most important mode is due to recoil but for this discussion, let's assume that was roughly equal for all shots. The secondary harmonics are more minor, but may show up at short range.

Once we are far enough down the trajectory, the velocity begins to dominate the shotfall and will take over in terms of the "vertical' spread of the load.

Maybe you ran the test too close?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Did a abbreviated ladder Saturday @ 600yds.
Wife and her Savage 22Nosler, 95 SMK, SB6.5 and CCI450.
30.7gr is right at 100% fill seated about 15 off.
Now to fine tune the charge.
Normally shoot 85.5s @ about 2990fps.
The 95 might be better when she moves to 1000yd.


Ordered some .224" 95 SMK Factory Seconds, Cheap, but
slight problem with a box of 500.
Beyond what I would call "Factory Seconds". A little over half were 95gr, .243"

Sent email to see if vendor will do something.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Did a abbreviated ladder Saturday @ 600yds.
Wife and her Savage 22Nosler, 95 SMK, SB6.5 and CCI450.
30.7gr is right at 100% fill seated about 15 off.
Now to fine tune the charge.
Normally shoot 85.5s @ about 2990fps.
The 95 might be better when she moves to 1000yd.
View attachment 1549716

Ordered some .224" 95 SMK Factory Seconds, Cheap, but
slight problem with a box of 500.
Beyond what I would call "Factory Seconds". A little over half were 95gr, .243"
View attachment 1549718
Sent email to see if vendor will do something.

30.4 looks better to me? Less vertical and better ES. Why go with 30.7? Or was that just a reference?

 

[DLT]

What distance?

At closes ranges, the secondary modes can show up.
The first and most important mode is due to recoil but for this discussion, let's assume that was roughly equal for all shots. The secondary harmonics are more minor, but may show up at short range.

Once we are far enough down the trajectory, the velocity begins to dominate the shotfall and will take over in terms of the "vertical' spread of the load.

Maybe you ran the test too close?

I shot it at 500yds from 38.6gr to 40.1gr using .3 increments and 3 shot groups vs round robin. 4-16 arken which does fine on steel to 500 and longer but paper shooting is different. In the past I have learned on the rifle it seems to have a narrow window with my components, .2 under or .2 over and my tiny groups at 100 and 200 go to pieces. I shoot my normal load out to 850 and it does ok. Wanted to run a ladder to see if it showed anything different. I’ll try and post a picture of the target. Again factory rifle

You will see only 2 uncolored holes as one had to miss off the bottom of paper. Color code is at top left I edited it in naked bullets was first charge then purple, light green, blue, red and dark green was highest charge.

 

[CharlieNC]

While it's not impossible to observe a drop in poi, typically you will see a region of relatively flat response. What was your increment in charge weight, it may have been too coarse?

 

[DLT]

While it's not impossible to observe a drop in poi, typically you will see a region of relatively flat response. What was your increment in charge weight, it may have been too coarse?

.3 6creedmoor is the cartridge. Dont be afraid to say it looks like a dogs hind end if it does

 

[Retired shooter]

What does a Tail/Head Wind (with gusts) do to POI?

Tail wind wil increase fps move poi up
Head wind will decrease fps move poi down.

Longer distance, or range of course affects it more.

To all a great day.!

 

[6.5 forever]

Whatever you decide on the ladder, just stick with it. Because those small samples will change tomorrow and next week.

 

[DLT]

Looks like a weather report to me. Shoot around the light green again.

That load is near what I have been shooting. That group is 1/2” at 500yds. I’m almost certain it won’t shoot that tight again but I’ll take it. Thank you SPJ

 

[CharlieNC]

Given the significant drop with a higher charge, that demonstrates the impact of barrel harmonic drop is overwhelming the rise due to ballistic trajectory. This could result from a heavy bullet vs a comparatively thin barrel, is either the case? Perhaps a lighter bullet would change the drop into a flat spot for poi.

 

[DLT]

Given the significant drop with a higher charge, that demonstrates the impact of barrel harmonic drop is overwhelming the rise due to ballistic trajectory. This could result from a heavy bullet vs a comparatively thin barrel, is either the case? Perhaps a lighter bullet would change the drop into a flat spot for poi.

It’s a sendero profile. 105bthp 8 twist

 

[RegionRat]

I shot it at 500yds from 38.6gr to 40.1gr using .3 increments and 3 shot groups vs round robin. 4-16 arken which does fine on steel to 500 and longer but paper shooting is different. In the past I have learned on the rifle it seems to have a narrow window with my components, .2 under or .2 over and my tiny groups at 100 and 200 go to pieces. I shoot my normal load out to 850 and it does ok. Wanted to run a ladder to see if it showed anything different. I’ll try and post a picture of the target. Again factory rifle View attachment 1549737

You will see only 2 uncolored holes as one had to miss off the bottom of paper. Color code is at top left I edited it in naked bullets was first charge then purple, light green, blue, red and dark green was highest charge.

I'm not sure where or what type of shooting you are interested in with this rig/load, but I don't really see the problem with your results. Many factory rifles won't shoot this well, so you are doing way better than the average.

You can exploit the places where you find positive compensation to make a rig shoot better than the velocity stats would imply. If you do your best with investigating the prospects and they still don't make you happy, it would be time to punt and try a change. The main point being to try and avoid wasting resources or fooling yourself with the common misconceptions.

A "window" of 0.4 grains wide is pretty good for a factory gun in my view. That is easily used to compensate for climate. Don't sell yourself short.

If your goal is F-Class or BR, you know what you must do. If it is to bang steel and learn to DOPE wind, my guess is you are going to be okay.

 

[Ccrider]

Depending on how far down the charge impacted and without seeing the target, it may just be what’s referred to as overlap .
Positive compensation.. This example of 31.0 overlapping 30.8 is far easier to follow than some other examples. Beyond 31.0 the load begins to shoot poorly and vertically.

So what load actually tested out?30.5?

 

[DLT]

I'm not sure where or what type of shooting you are interested in with this rig/load, but I don't really see the problem with your results. Many factory rifles won't shoot this well, so you are doing way better than the average.

You can exploit the places where you find positive compensation to make a rig shoot better than the velocity stats would imply. If you do your best with investigating the prospects and they still don't make you happy, it would be time to punt and try a change. The main point being to try and avoid wasting resources or fooling yourself with the common misconceptions.

A "window" of 0.4 grains wide is pretty good for a factory gun in my view. That is easily used to compensate for climate. Don't sell yourself short.

If your goal is F-Class or BR, you know what you must do. If it is to bang steel and learn to DOPE wind, my guess is you are going to be okay.

I don’t have a goal as far as any competition and if I did I surely would not use this rifle. All I do with it is shoot it, test, learn development, wind, and its limits till I burn it out. It’s a tinker with through the week rifle and compete and crash talk with friends and family on Sunday evenings banging steel, be it who can connect on a first round cold bore impact or a know your limits target stand or consecutive hits in a row. I know the light green group was tiny tiny and it’s close to what I have been shooting in charge weight but where would you explore on that target ? I will reshoot in better conditions next time Thank you

I don’t want to waste components but I have bought up more than enough powder, primers and pills to put this barrel in the grave.

 

[Northridge]

Is it common while shooting a ladder test that the shots from a higher charge will impact the paper lower than a low charge did ? I was carefull in my loading and keeping things in order and while coloring the tips with the corresponding charge weights and the order I shot them. Wind was a steady tail wind with some gusts. Spotted the shots through a spotting scope and the sharpies stood out great on the target so no confusion as to which shots was which. I understand maybe where one shot could go high or low just not the whole group and I understand the barrel whips

DLT, shoot the same ladder but upside down meaning from high charge to low if that same charge or charges go low that would be a true example of barrel compensation, if it doesn’t it’s likely false compensation and possible barrel heat or soak driven …

Shawn Williams