Ladder test aiming point

[Ajwilly96]

I’ve decided to do a ladder test for load development for my 223. This time around I have a 2ftx2ft target stand. I’m going to put white craft paper over it.

What would be a good mark for an aiming point? It will be shot with the NF FCR-1. I have some 4in round stickers, are these small enough that a slight difference in aiming point won’t skew the data? Any recommendations for a better aiming point?

Edit: forgot to add for my first test I’m going to be at 400yds

 

[DirtySteve]

Any thing you can hold on consistently with a good amount of repeatability should be fine.

Same hold every time.

 

[Webster]

I’ve decided to do a ladder test for load development for my 223. This time around I have a 2ftx2ft target stand. I’m going to put white craft paper over it.

What would be a good mark for an aiming point? It will be shot with the NF FCR-1. I have some 4in round stickers, are these small enough that a slight difference in aiming point won’t skew the data? Any recommendations for a better aiming point?

Edit: forgot to add for my first test I’m going to be at 400yds

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The best target may depend on scope magnification and how good you can hold on the point of aim. I use the target with 6 circles and a square. My ladder test are small groups. Don't need much space on the target. If you can't shoot small groups with the same load you may be wasting your time doing a ladder test. Sounds like you have a nice rifle and scope. I seldom shoot ladder test anymore. I just go for group size. I have have been shooting the same rifle long enough that I came up with a standard load I use all the time. I need more hunting no load development.

 

[Ajwilly96]

Print targets for free.

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The best target may depend on scope magnification and how good you can hold on the point of aim. I use the target with 6 circles and a square. My ladder test are small groups. Don't need much space on the target. If you can't shoot small groups with the same load you may be wasting your time doing a ladder test. Sounds like you have a nice rifle and scope. I seldom shoot ladder test anymore. I just go for group size. I have have been shooting the same rifle long enough that I came up with a standard load I use all the time. I need more hunting no load development.

I have a bunch of those downloaded. My scope is a NF Competition 15-55. My concern with those targets is not being able to see the center starting at 400 yards

 

[Webster]

I have a bunch of those downloaded. My scope is a NF Competition 15-55. My concern with those targets is not being able to see the center starting at 400 yards

Why would you do a ladder test at 400 yrds. To much wind affect. Your bench manners may be a big part of group size or ladder results. I would do it at 100. If you can not shoot small at 100 it isn't going to get better at 400. I would at least start a ladder at 100 then test groups at 100 then move to longer distance. If you want to shoot long distance there are many calibers better than a 223.

 

[Ajwilly96]

Why would you do a ladder test at 400 yrds. To much wind affect. Your bench manners may be a big part of group size or ladder results. I would do it at 100. If you can not shoot small at 100 it isn't going to get better at 400. I would at least start a ladder at 100 then test groups at 100 then move to longer distance. If you want to shoot long distance there are many calibers better than a 223.

All my loads at 100 tend to be under 1/2in. My understanding of a ladder test is you’re looking at vertical dispersion and not worried about wind. The article I read on it from 6mmBR.com said a min of 300yd for a ladder test

 

[Lance21]

Why would you do a ladder test at 400 yrds. To much wind affect. Your bench manners may be a big part of group size or ladder results. I would do it at 100. If you can not shoot small at 100 it isn't going to get better at 400. I would at least start a ladder at 100 then test groups at 100 then move to longer distance. If you want to shoot long distance there are many calibers better than a 223.

Your ladder test should be ran at least 600 yards, if you're using high bc bullets. Gives the bullets room to show you what it's doing.

 

[Link]

This is an example of one of the best shooters ladder test. Some shooters say start at 600 yd some say 100 yd. I don't know lol.

 

[RegionRat]

One of the problems we have on forums, is there is no committee on terminology....

When discussed, it is impossible to know if the mere use of a spread of charges is called a "ladder" or if the test should resemble the Audette Ladder.

Just my opinion from the industrial world, but a "ladder" test used to imply we were investigating non-linear shotfall patterns and that required the distance where the trajectory spread per step could come out of the noise.

When you shoot these tests up close, you can't see what the vertical nodes are doing, so we tend to call those other names. It is fair to call a wide spread of charges a "ladder", but which kind of ladder?

The OP is wanting to shoot something more like an Audette Ladder test, he should then take the middle charge and bring enough extra ammo of that load to get his wind and distance zero. His aim point only needs to be as big as the smallest one he can see with his scope, and placed in the center of his target. Not knowing him or his reticle, I would suggest a one inch dot or square should be fine at 400 yards.

He can then decide if he wants to offset the azimuth to avoid hitting the aiming dot, or just run his shots. YMMV

 

[Webster]

All my loads at 100 tend to be under 1/2in. My understanding of a ladder test is you’re looking at vertical dispersion and not worried about wind. The article I read on it from 6mmBR.com said a min of 300yd for a ladder test

What do you intend to use the rifle for? When shooting at a distance ES and wind reading becomes a factor that determine where to bullet hits.. I hunt GH and seldom shoot beyond 300 yrds. If your loads are under 1/2" your saying they are not good enough?

 

[Ajwilly96]

What do you intend to use the rifle for? When shooting at a distance ES and wind reading becomes a factor that determine where to bullet hits.. I hunt GH and seldom shoot beyond 300 yrds. If your loads are under 1/2" your saying they are not good enough?

My loads shooting 1/2in at 100 don't have great ES. I plan to shoot Mid/long range F-TR as well as a local steel shoot out to 1k with the smallest target being 4inx6in.

 

[Ajwilly96]

One of the problems we have on forums, is there is no committee on terminology....

When discussed, it is impossible to know if the mere use of a spread of charges is called a "ladder" or if the test should resemble the Audette Ladder.

Just my opinion from the industrial world, but a "ladder" test used to imply we were investigating non-linear shotfall patterns and that required the distance where the trajectory spread per step could come out of the noise.

When you shoot these tests up close, you can't see what the vertical nodes are doing, so we tend to call those other names. It is fair to call a wide spread of charges a "ladder", but which kind of ladder?

The OP is wanting to shoot something more like an Audette Ladder test, he should then take the middle charge and bring enough extra ammo of that load to get his wind and distance zero. His aim point only needs to be as big as the smallest one he can see with his scope, and placed in the center of his target. Not knowing him or his reticle, I would suggest a one inch dot or square should be fine at 400 yards.

He can then decide if he wants to offset the azimuth to avoid hitting the aiming dot, or just run his shots. YMMV

Terminology is how I got here haha I said somewhere else I was shooting a ladder test for a velocity node and was introduced to the vertical dispersion ladder test

 

[JFrank]

I’ve decided to do a ladder test for load development for my 223. This time around I have a 2ftx2ft target stand. I’m going to put white craft paper over it.

What would be a good mark for an aiming point? It will be shot with the NF FCR-1. I have some 4in round stickers, are these small enough that a slight difference in aiming point won’t skew the data? Any recommendations for a better aiming point?

Edit: forgot to add for my first test I’m going to be at 400yds

For charge ladders I use a Red Cross or a 1.5 red dot and colored bullets. Preference goes to the cross as long as I can see it clearly ( mirage or haze can blur it s bit) I use a NF comp as well and normally the sight picture is clear and bright.

 

[RegionRat]

Terminology is how I got here haha I said somewhere else I was shooting a ladder test for a velocity node and was introduced to the vertical dispersion ladder test

Yup.
No problem with also taking the velocity data if your chronograph makes that easy, but the priority should be on the target.

Using 223/556 for F-T/R is an extra challenge, but I am sure you know that by now. Try not to over-react to the ES/SD issues at first. Give yourself some time with MidRange matches at up to 600 for a while before you take on 1000. You can learn a lot about loading by working at 600 and it all helps with the transition to 1000.

For many reasons the 223/556 can be challenging in terms of ES/SD to say the least, but no need to clutter up this thread with all that.

You will do fine if you stick with it and are tenacious, and you won't if you get disappointed easily or your attention span is short. Try to have fun and not worry about winning on the first try.

I would suggest you go ahead and check the vertical shotfall on your test at 400 as planned, and then after finding the best candidate (or two) circle back to group testing at 300 for a balance between wind and distance.

MR matches are good for getting your routines worked out, both in terms of loading and shooting. I only mention it to say some folks try to run before they crawl or walk, fall on their faces and give up as a result. Give yourself a chance to learn the ropes at 300/600 and by the time your average goes over 95% you will be far along the path to 1000. Stick with it and you will get there. Good Luck and Good Shooting.

 

[Doom]

All my loads at 100 tend to be under 1/2in. My understanding of a ladder test is you’re looking at vertical dispersion and not worried about wind. The article I read on it from 6mmBR.com said a min of 300yd for a ladder test

My loads shooting 1/2in at 100 don't have great ES. I plan to shoot Mid/long range F-TR as well as a local steel shoot out to 1k with the smallest target being 4inx6in.

Not disagreeing with @RegionRat, Not knowing your rig or anything about your components means we can only provide some generic advice or information. I am assuming you are new to load development. So I'll add ...

It is commonly thought that a 100yd group is dependent on velocity variation being good which is not the case. It takes about 100 fps to move the POI .2" at 100 yds in 223. It it predominately dependent on the barrel consistently being at approximately the same point in its vibration cycle with small velocities tangent to the bore centerline.. At longer distances is where the velocity SD and ES come into play. If your ES is known bad but 100yd groups are good and you have good case fill (~90% or Better) then its probably not the powder charge that is the problem but brass/bullet/powder consistency that is the issue. Shooting a ladder is probably not going to help and may well confuse the issue. I would look at your reloading process and see if there may be areas where the consistency can be improved.

 

[R.Morehouse]

If you are going to use the same point of aim, put the crosshair on it then dial in windage to put your impact point away from your point of aim, so you don't shoot it out...I do this at 100yds,......Have Fun

Regards
Rick

 

[Ajwilly96]

Not disagreeing with @RegionRat, Not knowing your rig or anything about your components means we can only provide some generic advice or information. I am assuming you are new to load development. So I'll add ...

It is commonly thought that a 100yd group is dependent on velocity variation being good which is not the case. It takes about 100 fps to move the POI .2" at 100 yds in 223. It it predominately dependent on the barrel consistently being at approximately the same point in its vibration cycle with small velocities tangent to the bore centerline.. At longer distances is where the velocity SD and ES come into play. If your ES is known bad but 100yd groups are good and you have good case fill (~90% or Better) then its probably not the powder charge that is the problem but brass/bullet/powder consistency that is the issue. Shooting a ladder is probably not going to help and may well confuse the issue. I would look at your reloading process and see if there may be areas where the consistency can be improved.

I feel like my setup is pretty decent. It’s a Kelbly Fclass panda, in a bedded Kelbly KTS Stock, 30in Brux chambered with a personal reamer, Joypod X, and NF comp and NF rings.

I feel like my reloading process is pretty consistent, necks have been skim turned, brass has been fire formed, annealed with an AMP, FL sized, shoulder bumped, expanded with a mandrel, Lapua Brass, Berger bullets, VV N140 powder measured with a ST, and seated with a 21st century hydro press.

I’ve heard from several people that the 223 with heavy bullets is hard to load for and low SD/ES is hard to achieve.

I’m not new to reloading, but I’ve never done this type of testing before. Usually I can find a load at 100 with low ES/SD that will preform well at 1,000yds.

I was just wanting to know what people’s favorite target shape is for 400+ yards to get consistent data.

 

[Fuj]

If you are going to use the same point of aim, put the crosshair on it then dial in windage to put your impact point away from your point of aim, so you don't shoot it out...I do this at 100yds,......Have Fun

Regards
Rick

Yeah, about the same here.......i use a 5/16" circle and dial away
from it with a little windage then elevation for separation.

 

[JFrank]

Yeah, about the same here.......i use a 5/16" circle and dial away
from it with a little windage then elevation for separation.

If you change elevation with each charge how do you identify a node, flat spot or overlap ? I don’t understand unless you’re just group shooting or testing seating depth.

 

[Doom]

I feel like my setup is pretty decent. It’s a Kelbly Fclass panda, in a bedded Kelbly KTS Stock, 30in Brux chambered with a personal reamer, Joypod X, and NF comp and NF rings.

I feel like my reloading process is pretty consistent, necks have been skim turned, brass has been fire formed, annealed with an AMP, FL sized, shoulder bumped, expanded with a mandrel, Lapua Brass, Berger bullets, VV N140 powder measured with a ST, and seated with a 21st century hydro press.

I’ve heard from several people that the 223 with heavy bullets is hard to load for and low SD/ES is hard to achieve.

I’m not new to reloading, but I’ve never done this type of testing before. Usually I can find a load at 100 with low ES/SD that will preform well at 1,000yds.

I was just wanting to know what people’s favorite target shape is for 400+ yards to get consistent data.

Nice. As for SD you are correct that getting low numbers is difficult. I don't see many F/TR shooters but I think anything around ten is very good.

Target selection is a personal choice. With a cross hair only (No target dot) I would choose a target with horizontal and vertical lines (purchased or drawn) and align my shot on those. I personally find that more consistent than trying to hold steady on/in a dot. The POI would be to the right to avoid hitting my aiming point. My eyes are 72 y/o so that makes a difference.