My First Attempt at Ladder Load Development

[Kurt Blasser]

So, today I tried 5 shots of H4895 43.6, 43.7, 43.8, 43.9 and 44. I'm a little concerned, especially with the above comments regarding velocities over 2700. See the targets and velocities below. The 43.7 target, I think I pulled a bit on the shot # 3. If we toss that one out, I have a vertical MOA of .12. I think I'll do a seating test on the H4895 43.7. Anybody want to make me feel better about velocities greater than 2700?

 

[Kurt Blasser]

So, today I tried 5 shots of H4895 43.6, 43.7, 43.8, 43.9 and 44. I'm a little concerned, especially with the above comments regarding velocities over 2700. See the targets and velocities below. The 43.7 target, I think I pulled a bit on the shot # 3. If we toss that one out, I have a vertical MOA of .12. I think I'll do a seating test on the H4895 43.7. Anybody want to make me feel better about velocities greater than 2700?

But the 44.0 is awful appealing!

 

[abersfelderami]

Second Day of Load development. Nice morning, overcast ,75, minimal wind, no mirage. Tried the Lapua LRP Varget, 200.20X -.020 combination again, and added Lapua Brass LRP, H4895, 200.20X, -.020. The first ladder was shot at 300 yds, but didn't show much separation, so moved to 500 yds for the H4895 ladder. Each ladder seemed to have one outlier with out of sequence high velocity. ?? Started to see flattening of the primer with the upper H4895 and the velocity got up there pretty good and recoil harder. Primers otherwise ok with both loads. My recollection in reading here was that the H4895 might give the same velocities at a slightly lower grain level than the Varget. Correct? I also remember reading that a good velocity node for the 200.20X in 30" barrel 1-10 twist is in the 2650 to 2680 range. Correct? Is that enough velocity for 600-1000?
Looking at the paper in the H4895 the 6,7,8 level looks good. If I forget the high velocity for 6 it looks like a good area to me. The Varget target somewhat compressed due to the 300 yds but 4,5,6,7,8 pretty level. Suggestions please!

Varget:
.......
43.6gr
43.9gr
44.3

H4895:
.......
43.7gr
43.8gr
43.9gr
........
........
Seating depth?

 

[Kurt Blasser]

Varget:
.......
43.6gr
43.9gr
44.3

H4895:
.......
43.7gr
43.8gr
43.9gr
........
........
Seating depth?

-.020 off the lands. Seating test next.

 

[Had2muchofForums]

Well, I didn't really look at the H4895 pics, but for Varget you have a couple small windows. Between 44.6 and 45.2 your average velocity only increased 19 ft/sec. Specifically between 44.8 and 45.2 the avg velocity only had a 9 ft/sec extreme spread. If it were me, and pressure was ok, I would load 45.1 grains and perform a seating depth test from touching the lands to about .015" off the lands in .002 or .003" increments. Look either for where the groups close up or for where a cluster of groups all hit to about the same POI.

Sorry, didn't look at the H4895

 

[JFrank]

Well, I like shots 1-2, then 6-7, 8-9-10, and 14-15. Looks like you picked the middle of these groups with the load data on the left. I think I'd look at that area 6-7 and 8-9-10. That would be pretty wide I would think. Any velocity data?

Regarding your test-
The H4895 load is 43.7 just as I suggested, stick with flat!!
I don't see the latest Varget test??

 

[JFrank]

Well, I didn't really look at the H4895 pics, but for Varget you have a couple small windows. Between 44.6 and 45.2 your average velocity only increased 19 ft/sec. Specifically between 44.8 and 45.2 the avg velocity only had a 9 ft/sec extreme spread. If it were me, and pressure was ok, I would load 45.1 grains and perform a seating depth test from touching the lands to about .015" off the lands in .002 or .003" increments. Look either for where the groups close up or for where a cluster of groups all hit to about the same POI.

Sorry, didn't look at the H4895

44.8-45.1 ?? Man you -can't get much hotter "
Probably kicks harder than a government mule with 200gr Bullets.
I would not recommend that load at all.
SPJ
Addendum- Varget would not be my choice for the heavy Bullets in the first place, IMR 4064 would be.

 

[Had2muchofForums]

44.8-45.1 ?? Man you -can't get much hotter "
Probably kicks harder than a government mule with 200gr Bullets.
I would not recommend that load at all.
SPJ
Addendum- Varget would not be my choice for the heavy Bullets in the first place, IMR 4064 would be.

It's not what I'd choose either. But I'm not the one developing the load or asking for help. I'm only interpreting what is in front of me. Personally, 45 grains of Varget is my max for a 175, let alone a 200.

I would highly encourage you to observe the velocity changes that accompany powder charges. It's much more reliable and objective than observing where bullets land on a target. And, yes I've done more ladder tests than I can remember. And, yes I always got good results. But over the years I learned, through doing, that the results aren't always repeatable and sometimes shit happens and there is a more reliable way. A shot gets pulled, or you're just having an off day, it happens and can easily ruin the test. Or you start saying things like, "well I think I pulled that shot" or "if I don't include this shot the group is really good". So you end up making guesses, slightly educated, but still a guess.

What you will find when observing velocity is similar to what should happen on the target when ladder testing. A flat spot. You will find a node where the velocity changes very little, usually around or less than 10 ft/sec. Use this node and then tune for seating depth. What you will end up with is an amazingly resiliant load that will perform in hot and cold weather even if the charge isn't perfect.

Basically this method takes the best parts of ladder testing, OCW, 10 shot load development, and Tony Boyer's methods and combines them.

I've been using this technique the last two years and my results are much more consistent. I really don't have those completely unexplained fliers anymore. In addition, I understand the load much better. I know down to the tenth of a grain where my window is. This inspires a lot of confidence.

Oh and IMR 4064 is my favorite. 308 powder, but never tried it with 200's

 

[Had2muchofForums]

43.7 H4895 then seating depth test

@SPJ

Isn't it interesting that we both came up with the same H4895 load despite you using the target and me using the avg velocities?

 

[Kurt Blasser]

There were several nodes however the best (flatest) is 9-10
That load shot very well at 600 yards. The high node is appealing but tougher to tune consistently.
Volocities? I really don't use that for ladder test.
Regarding your test-
The H4895 load is 43.7 just as I suggested, stick with flat!!
I don't see the latest Varget test??

Thanks all! Only had time to go with the H4895. I think for now I'll pursue the 43.7 with a seating depth test. Maybe try a ladder with IMR 4064, do have some of that.

 

[JFrank]

43.7 H4895 then seating depth test

@SPJ

Isn't it interesting that we both came up with the same H4895 load despite you using the target and me using the avg velocities?

Go Figure

 

[Kurt Blasser]

43.7 H4895 then seating depth test

@SPJ

Isn't it interesting that we both came up with the same H4895 load despite you using the target and me using the avg velocities?

What would be the recommended intervals for a seating test?

 

[JFrank]

What would be the recommended intervals for a seating test?

I like to start at -0- proceed.005 increments find a window then check each side by .002
JMOC-YMMV

 

[Had2muchofForums]

What would be the recommended intervals for a seating test?

I'm not sure there is a universal answer to that question. When testing VLD bullets Berger recommends .040" increments starting approximately touching the lands and going out to .120" I believe. Their website has way more info. They suggest this method because the VLD style bullets (secant ogive) is very sensitive to seating depth. I've done this test with 190's in the .308 and the results were just as Berger states. One group was about a 1/2" and the others were 2-3 inches. This is not needed for tangent ogive bullets

A person could fine tune from there in increments of .002 - .005" or so.

Tony Boyer's book suggests using .002" increments starting touching the lands and working out to about .015" off the lands (I think, it's been a few years since I last read his book). I do remember him stating that a person will likely miss their node if they use .005" increments. I remember thinking that was silly, until I actually tried it and saw how the POI moved. I would look for a leveling out of the POI; where multiple seating depths have the same POI.

So easy answer: I don't know--I'd do .002" starting on the lands and working out.

I'm going to send you a PM with some pics--but it might be a while...I'll try to do it tonight though.

 

[Kurt Blasser]

I like to start at -0- proceed.005 increments find a window then check each side by .002
JMOC-YMMV

Shoot seating depth ladder style or say groups of three?

 

[JFrank]

Shoot seating depth ladder style or say groups of three?

My style " easy to read for sure

 

[JFrank]

Need some recommendations regarding load developement. This is my first attempt at a ladder. The rifle is a Kelbly FTR with 30 " Krieger barrel, 1-10 twist, shooting Lapua brass, two ladders with LR primers and one ladder with Palma brass. Varget powder, Berger 200.20X bullets. First ladder at 500 yards, the next two at 300. First ladder there was a lot of mirage and aiming point might have been difficult to hold. Second two at 300 with a more defined aiming point. I had previously developed a Cortina load at 44 grains of Varget seated -.030 from the lands. Shot so-so. Thought I'd try the ladder technique. These were shot -.020 which was another seating depth that shot well on the Cortina test. Hope it comes out rotated right

Kurt
That Palma brass test is quite intriguing, I keep looking at 7-8
thinking that might be the most bad ass load sending that 200 gr at that speed and stay flat!!
OMG

 

[Kurt Blasser]

Shot seating test today with 43.7 grains of H4895 today from .005 to .040 off lands. Temperature was a bit warmer than the ladder tests, but surprised to see that the velocity had changed so dramatically from the 5 shot series that looked so good at 43.7. That test had velocity in the 2670-80 area and today it was in the 2716-20 area. I'll post some targets later. My standard load of 44 gn Varget shoots at about 2680 and shot that first today without any increase over the usual. Not especially liking being over 2700 and blew two primers in 4x fired lapua brass.

 

[Don_Parsons]

I've been playing with load development for my 2nd 308.

It's favourite ELD-M 178gr load is 42.8 gr's of Varget,,, its the 50-50 wear & tear on the Palma Lapua brass.

42.2 gr will be the summer load.
42.8 winter. Both of these loads show good results with a tight horizontal water line.

The 43.5 gr's of Varget was stretching the lower case section just above the rim at the Web.

0.4675 allowed soft load cases to touch the bottom plate.

The medium loads were "about" an 1/8th off the plate.

The higher charged loads "about" 3/16".

The Mad Hatter stretched cases were "about" 1/4" to 5/16" off the plate,,, that's way to much stretch on the side-wall Web.

The 2 hot loads were showing slight signs of primer popping when I switched to the Case OAL gauge.

Hot loads showing 1.6295 with 43.5 gr's charge .

Medium/ Hot at 1.6290 with 43 gr's.

Medium at 1.6285 with 42.5

Soft at 1.6280 with 42 gr charge.

So I picked the 42.8 charge since it limits primer pop,,, and puts the side case Web stretch at a 1/8" off the bottom measuring plate.

I'll get about 22 to 28 reloads out of this brass with its tightest 400 and 800 meter ladder.

10 shot 2" water line at 400 meters.
10 shot 4" to 5" water line at 800,,, a good place to fine tune from this stage.

The brass will see the 4 to 1 sizing till it's garbage.

4 neck collect sizes to 1 FL.

It's all about getting the 50/50 out of the rifle, brass and shooters. Ha.

Flatten out the horizontal water line in an attempt to pull off the Windy vertical that "Might" show signs of a group down range.

Don

 

[Don_Parsons]

I forgot to add the extra info as above.

Some of us need to start somewhere, so the trick for me is finding a 2 season loads since Northern Canada doesn't have 1 season,,, its either dam hot in the summer or frozen ice cube winter. Ha

Hodgen powders "they" say are none temperature sensitive,,, I think what they "ment" to say is that its "less" sensitive.

I only use Hodgen powers in all 3 of my 30 caliber rifles because it's in abundance up here. The winter case chargers are to hot in the summer time,,, the Lapua brass doesn't like the case Webs stretched and primer pop,,, so having 2 load datas allows me to extend the life of the bass,,, the longer the brass lasts, the less flash burn saves on the over-all costs that allows me to use those funds to re-barrel at a later date.

My Ought-6 barrel is pretty much toast at 7300 rounds after tapping it kool on 92 to 94% of its life,,, the 6 to 8% hot loads for hunting season eats things up fast,,, had I run hot loads all the time,,, normally the pipe would be done at 900 to 1600 rounds.

I'll finish this barrel off this year before changing it out,,, it is good enough to use for close range hunting and the 600 meter shoots with the 1 MOA groups,,, lucky for us that the gong down range is 7". It is the confirmation gong that let's us know when rifle barrels have reached the true end... More outters then inners let's say. LOL
Plus it comes in handy as the warm-up unit instead of burning up the other Two 30 cal rifles,,, when 1 gets a new pipe the other 2 are in full operations.

The 2 season loads for each rifle allow us to extend barrel life, case deterioration beyond the normal hot loads.

Any-who, the trick for me or some shooters is to find max pressure signs,,, then tap it back from there when building loads for BR or F Class,,, I'm the furthest thing from pin hole groups,,, but what I lack in that department I gain in over all longevity.

This allows our family and friends to shoot all season long on a frugal budget.
We just switched back to 80% 22 rimfire,,, so now we're getting 3 to 4 years of barrel and case life per high-power rifle,,, its also allows us to travel great distances with the saved funds.

Lots of shooting sports, hunting and travels to crown lands where we continue to ladder test building loads for different bullets.

All of our 30 cals are dialed in with 180gr boolitz,,, we are working the 150gr'ers right now,,, then doing the 200 gr + cast lead bullets this summer.

That's the nice thing about the 30 cals,,, 1 brand of rifles to shoot a variety of different weight bullets depending on the shooting sports or plinking and hunting we take them on.

This is only part of living the dream, Ha. Did I mention that we take on Trad & tech archery. LOL.

We blend that part in with frozen Lake ice fishing. Kind of like have a little bit of everything on the go to make the out door experiences that much more fun,,, the good times to go with the other good times.

A life time of burning gas is what its all about.

Don