SHOT Show and F Class?

[jthor]

Did I see that the Pikes Peak matches are cancelled? I've shot a few of the matches at Pawnee, but haven't made it south yet.

Yeah, temporarily due to a few incidents at Cheyenne mountain shooting complex, not shooting club related. One dude blew up his 338 Lapua in October and another incident I guess recently. So Fort Carson safety office shut the range down temporarily and they just got the ability to shoot out to 300 yards on paper with being able to shoot steel further out next on the approval. You still got all the other WyCo matches: Prestige Shooting Complex, Cheyenne Hoedown, Rawlins and Laramie Rifle Rodeo all in southern Wyoming. I don’t care at all for Pawnee with the pistol stages. It’s Precision Rifle Series, not Pistol Rifle Series. Lol

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Also look at some of the shooting sports.... They don't do as much to bring new shooters in. BR is probably the worse. Not poking at anyone just saying.

Also you have to look at who is running the matches/events and the leg work they do to bring the shooters in. I'll say the PRS organizers go way out of they're way to bring shooters in vs high power, f class and BR etc...

Also I'll say more shooters or spectators like seeing a reaction when the shooter fires the gun. Seeing a bullet impact a steel plate is something you can see/hear... .a spectator watching a guy shoot a paper target at a given distance with out looking thru a spotting scope... you get no reaction. Watch a shooter run from spot to spot and handling the equipment... again vs a guy sitting at a bench or laying on the ground and just cycling the bolt or pulling the trigger... what else is there to see.

My boys have absolutely zero interest in how small they can get a rifle to group. They love seeing/hearing impacts. Steel, clays, beer cans. We don’t have any interest in competing. I’m pretty sure there’s no competition stuff within a hundred miles of us anyway.

 

[JSH]

I tried NRL22, built one rifle and bought another. I understand it and think it is a platform to grow on. But from the las 2-3 years it has become an equipment race, which at some point will price itself clear out of many new shooters. Last NRL22 match I ate Alieves like titacs and was stiff for the better part of a week.

I am probably the only one on this thread that would go to a rifle match and be a spectator. I enjoy and appreciate the accuracy. Along with being able to gleen or learn anything.

 

[Jim Ziegler]

Yeah, temporarily due to a few incidents at Cheyenne mountain shooting complex, not shooting club related. One dude blew up his 338 Lapua in October and another incident I guess recently. So Fort Carson safety office shut the range down temporarily and they just got the ability to shoot out to 300 yards on paper with being able to shoot steel further out next on the approval. You still got all the other WyCo matches: Prestige Shooting Complex, Cheyenne Hoedown, Rawlins and Laramie Rifle Rodeo all in southern Wyoming. I don’t care at all for Pawnee with the pistol stages. It’s Precision Rifle Series, not Pistol Rifle Series. Lol

Totally agree, I didn't have much fun out there. Really hooked on F class now though. Lol

 

[Fclassfool]

Another thing you have to remember is a lot of these folks are business people not sportsman or shooters they might have picked it up from working in the industry but it doesn't go far outside of what they are selling

As for getting new people into f class or bench rest. I've introduced probably a dozen folks to long range shooting bench and Fclass and they will shoot with me and talk about shooting a match but after they shoot a match and don't do well that's it for them they don't want anything to do with competition anymore. I guess they thought they were better than they actually are I don't know, I've had one stick it out and he won soty at our little club last year.

 

[SSchnd]

Speaking of Spectator Sport, ever watch the Queens Match at Bisley? They have a crowd at matches over there. I see some with binoculars and not many with a spotter, but E targets add a whole new avenue of bringing the spectator into the shooters on target results.
CMP's system allows me to watch folks at the Talladega range in as I see select certain targets to view. Knowing which relay friends are on.
Different topic but to the point of PRS being more fun to watch or a trap match, cause steel makes sound and birds go poof, but if I can see the target on a screen as a spectator, makes a little bit of sense. Cost is of a course an issue.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Yeah, temporarily due to a few incidents at Cheyenne mountain shooting complex, not shooting club related. One dude blew up his 338 Lapua in October and another incident I guess recently. So Fort Carson safety office shut the range down temporarily and they just got the ability to shoot out to 300 yards on paper with being able to shoot steel further out next on the approval. You still got all the other WyCo matches: Prestige Shooting Complex, Cheyenne Hoedown, Rawlins and Laramie Rifle Rodeo all in southern Wyoming. I don’t care at all for Pawnee with the pistol stages. It’s Precision Rifle Series, not Pistol Rifle Series. Lol

Swanny is still awaiting licensing/approval for Prestige from what I have heard. Pawnee pistol stages are pretty easy but do get your point of it being a precision rifle match.

 

[F Class John]

The list really does go on. This year the PRS moved to being officially international also.

My understanding is they've added PRS to the Worlds just like Sling(Target Rifle) and F Class.

Just to ask the question again.
1. Where does the prize money come from? Entry fees?

2. How do you draw that level of vendor support to load up all those tables?

It comes from both sponsors and shooters. Bottom line is for sponsors it's all about eyeballs on their brand and F Class just can't compete with PRS when it comes to visibility. My guess is for every F Class person, there's at least 10-20 PRS people (in terms of people attending matches).

In simplest terms, PRS is not under the NRA and can do whatever they want as a private organization. This gives them way more flexibility on rules, match formats, match locations, where the money goes and how sponsors are recognized.

That being said, I'm very grateful to (Berger, Lapua, VihtaVuori, Cortina Precision, Brux, Bartlein, Blake Machine, Seb, Dima, Sierra, DBM, March, Redding, Forster and K&M come to mind but there's others as well) who continually step up for local, state and national F Class matches. Without them, there'd likely be no prize table at most matches and I'd like to hope shooters take the time to thank those companies for their generosity.

 

[Dimner]

I have a suspicion that, if we looked close enough, to the people who put the PRS sport together or have run the organization for the last half doze years, we would find individuals in or tied very closely with major companies in the firearms industry.

Or a different way of putting it. PRS would not exist if it had the same industry support as F-class.

 

[JoeDuke]

My understanding is they've added PRS to the Worlds just like Sling(Target Rifle) and F Class.

It comes from both sponsors and shooters. Bottom line is for sponsors it's all about eyeballs on their brand and F Class just can't compete with PRS when it comes to visibility. My guess is for every F Class person, there's at least 10-20 PRS people (in terms of people attending matches).

In simplest terms, PRS is not under the NRA and can do whatever they want as a private organization. This gives them way more flexibility on rules, match formats, match locations, where the money goes and how sponsors are recognized.

That being said, I'm very grateful to (Berger, Lapua, VihtaVuori, Cortina Precision, Brux, Bartlein, Blake Machine, Seb, Dima, Sierra, DBM, March, Redding, Forster and K&M come to mind but there's others as well) who continually step up for local, state and national F Class matches. Without them, there'd likely be no prize table at most matches and I'd like to hope shooters take the time to thank those companies for their generosity.

John, I shoot NBRSA short range benchrest score. There are probably 5 to 10 of you for each one of us. We solicit prizes for our national shoots and are very grateful for those who support us as well. We always encourage the shooters to thank the donors as well. Without them, we would not have quality products. As it is, we live in the best of times in terms of good equipment.

 

[jthor]

I have a suspicion that, if we looked close enough, to the people who put the PRS sport together or have run the organization for the last half doze years, we would find individuals in or tied very closely with major companies in the firearms industry.

Or a different way of putting it. PRS would not exist if it had the same industry support as F-class.

A lot of companies have started because of the PRS to improve it that did not exist in its earliest days. PRS grew its own support due to the shooters want and drive to improve the sport and increase impacts.
- Armageddon Gear
- Weibad
- MDT
- MPA
- Alpha Munitions
- Gray Ops CNC
- XLR
- SAC
- Zero Compromise
- Foundation
- Hawkins Precision
- Impact Precision
And so on. Not big companies at the beginning, but one offs that started as projects and grew into big companies. PRS started off with 223s/308s and Schmidt and Benders and now you’d be hard pressed to find and S&B on the line.

 

[jthor]

Swanny is still awaiting licensing/approval for Prestige from what I have heard. Pawnee pistol stages are pretty easy but do get your point of it being a precision rifle match.

Not sure, he’s had what 2 matches? Both were regional PRS matches. Its a really good range with potential to have a 2 day match at.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Not sure, he’s had what 2 matches? Both were regional PRS matches. Its a really good range with potential to have a 2 day match at.

I shot at the last match there and we have a mutual friend that just shot there with AJ for practice but still waiting on BS paperwork.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

What’s it take to be competitive in each one?

Isn’t prs more on the shooter? A half minute rifle with a good shooter.

Isn’t f-class more like benchrest, a tuning/wind reading/money game?

I suspect some people in prs don’t even reload. A lot of people are not interested in the tuning part. I can count on one hand the people that I know personally that take part in the real tuning part. Probably people want to just shoot and not pull their hair out trying to get a gun to shoot in the 1’s. Add to that, the shooter/rifle interface, actually shooting the rifle instead of the rest, is a whole different game. More real/practical.

I don’t take part in either but I get it. The practical side of it. More people are interested in something that relates to real world shooting. Bipod on the hood of the pickup shooting a coyote kinda stuff. Less time in the lab, more behind the gun.

 

[moondog]

I've shot several of the monthly WyCo matches. I don't practice at it at all, ever! Thus, I'm not very good at it. I go because they are a really fun group of guys. I always shoot whatever rifle has the highest milage barrel cause I'm not serious about it. Some of the stages are just plain silly, the "burpee spool" at Laramie is a good example. I'm 70, and it's a work out for sure. Shooting a 19lb gun off hand sucked too. Then there is the fact that I can shoot some sort if field/prs style match every weekend within 2 hours if I want. Bench, F Class, not so much.

 

[Dimner]

"burpee spool" at Laramie is a good example.

Please tell us more! I have this weird mental pictures of PRS guys doing 10 burpees and then shooting while resting the rifle on a huge telecom wire spool.

 

[jthor]

@moondog I’m young and even I hate that stage lol

 

[jthor]

Please tell us more! I have this weird mental pictures of PRS guys doing 10 burpees and then shooting while resting the rifle on a huge telecom wire spool.

It’s just a lot of movement at a target at 5 or 600 yards for 10 shots.

- You start shooting off the spool, shoot
- Then go down to the left side of the spool prone, shoot
- up on the spool again, shoot
- right side of the spool prone, shoot
And repeat until you get all 10 shots off or run out of time.
Tests folks target acquisition and the ability to set up in a timely manner and get a shot off.

 

[Dimner]

It’s just a lot of movement at a target at 5 or 600 yards for 10 shots.

- You start shooting off the spool, shoot
- Then go down to the left side of the spool prone, shoot
- up on the spool again, shoot
- right side of the spool prone, shoot
And repeat until you get all 10 shots off or run out of time.
Tests folks target acquisition and the ability to set up in a timely manner and get a shot off.

I like it. probably gets the blood pumping? Sometimes stalking deer you get in those blood pumping situations and you want to take a shot. People think I'm a weirdo for, among other things, running back from hanging a target at the 100yd range. Prone with blood pumping and a bit winded is a good skill to have. Still I'm not that great at it.

 

[RegionRat]

What’s it take to be competitive in each on?

Isn’t prs more on the shooter? A half minute rifle with a good shooter.

Isn’t f-class more like benchrest, a tuning/wind reading/money game?

I suspect some people in prs don’t even reload. A lot of people are not interested in the tuning part. I can count on one hand the people that I know personally that take part in the real tuning part. Probably people want to just shoot and not pull their hair out trying to get a gun to shoot in the 1’s. Add to that, the shooter/rifle interface, actually shooting the rifle instead of the rest, is a whole different game. More real/practical.

I don’t take part in either but I get it. The practical side of it. More people are interested in something that relates to real world shooting. Bipod on the hood of the pickup shooting a coyote kinda stuff. Less time in the lab, more behind the gun.

There are fewer course standards in PRS because the MD can decide on the degree of difficulty for the course, however....

It takes a tight gun to win in PRS just like it does in F-Class, if we are talking about more than one day and in many types of weather.

Imagine if the F-Class and BR games were to suddenly count all the sighters, and spent the whole match jumping from 600, to 800, to 1000, for just one shot each under time pressure?

Imagine if all PRS matches were at known distances and used prone but had 22 minutes to shoot 15 to 20 for record?

Most PRS guns that are in the top page, are shooting pretty tight. Most F-Class guns have no choice but to shoot tight if they are competitive. It turns out, both types of competitor consider being under 0.5 MOA to be their standard, otherwise they know they are leaving points on the table.

I am sure there are some beginners who come to both games with guns that cannot clean a standard F-Class target at 600 yards on a windless day, but that doesn't matter since the shooter and wind call effects will swamp that error. They won't make Master with those stats, but they can have fun learning and climbing while they figure it out.

By the same token, the PRS folks who are on the top of the page have rigs that are shooting under 0.5 MOA for the duration of the match, and the same is true when discussing the MA and HM level in Highpower and F-Class.

There are very few examples of folks shooting factory ammo in either game and doing well for any duration.

The vast majority of (above average) PRS folks reload, and do it pretty well when tested.

In the end, both games are pretty tough in terms of the performance of the weapon system in order to be competitive. The field target games force better marksmanship and shooting under pressure, and they require better physical ability.

When you take a good smallbore 3P shooter, and have them try the rimfire version of PRS, they do very well. I have not seen the opposite (having a good rimfire PRS shooter try 3p) to date, but I am not going to claim I could possibly know either. Their guns and ammo are shooting very tight at the top levels.