.17-5.56 Adventure updates

[Wolfdog91]

Your seating depth change helped, you can tune out that vertical with the powder charge weight. Once you have the neck tension consistent and brass ejects correctly. I use 556 brass formed to 17 rem for my AR( lose brass hunting in the snow, don't want to lose my factory 17R brass). Get 0.002-0.003 neck tension, add .5-1.0 gr powder.

Wait wait wait wait ....you form .17 rem ..from 5.56 ?! How ? Because everythign I keep reading is your gonna get it too short with 5.56/.223

 

[Wolfdog91]

Looks like ya found the load..
Nice rd group.. minus a flyer shot you pulled…

now if I can just get to where I can consistently shoot like that

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Just slightly, first firing or 2. I bought a bunch from classified on Saubier, many years ago. I loaded and shot it for prairie dogs. I often shut the gas off on my AR, let the brass sit in the chamber a few seconds the first firing, when shooting prairie dogs. I run 4831 or BLC2, often in that one. BLC2 and the 20gr vmax is a great pigeon and starling/gopher load.

 

[DonB]

Wait wait wait wait ....you form .17 rem ..from 5.56 ?! How ? Because everythign I keep reading is your gonna get it too short with 5.56/.223

I did this probably 40 years ago. Bought a REM 700 in 17 for coyote hunting. Looked at cartridge dimensions and necked the 223 to 17 cal. The case is shorter but you just have a shorter neck. Shot a lot of coyotes with no problems.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Ok time for some updates...even though their is a old lol
So spend a few hours today freezing my butt of messing with these 25gr's and BLC-2 . Using .17-223 load data from hodgdons website and .....egh. better SD but lower velocity and the groups where...meh , like 1.5"
Wanted to hunt a little to night so went and loaded up more 20gainers over 26gr of CFE .223 and got the NV hooked up

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

That's about a 1000' fps LESS than what I get with 20 gr vmax out of my 17Rem.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Well no luck night hunting , cold had them locked up ,southern critters in cold snaps just don't seem to move much during , before and after yes during the whole 2-4 days it's frozen up, nah.
Tried some day time stands. Find a perfect setup aannnnnd my battery died

Got to stalk up on this little guy and take some pics though, seen more of them this year then ever before

 

[Wolfdog91]

That's about a 1000' fps LESS than what I get with 20 gr vmax out of my 17Rem.

Same power and action ? Because again 18" barrel ,blc-2. powder ( starting loads) gas gun, 25,GR bullet

 

[Wolfdog91]

So decided to give annealing a try
Now just to be clear why I didnt to begin with. KAK has stated ,that they made this up to be a simple deal for guys wanting to get into a .17cal centerfire. In their videos they stated all you need to do to convert brass is a single run into the resizing die. I wanted to test those claims. If I just went and ran buckwild on some more advanced ( yes annealing is kinda advanced for some) stuff then what would just kinda nullify that . It's like if I company said their after market engine will fit perfectly in a car but before you even tired to test fit you start cutting out the engine bay to make room or something. If that makes sense . Now according to them you want once fired brass because it's work hardened for initial forming. They said they initially tried annealing their brass but it resulted in too many crushed necks due to the soft annealed brass collapsing. And I can post a link to the video where they explain this if anyone wants.

Ok anyhow the test. Not the most scientific, took 20rd of brass from the same bag I've been working with. It's all been de capped cleaned ect . All same head stamp 23 Lake city 5.56. Made sure to chey they all had good looking case mouth and the like.
As far as the annealing just some Podunk flame change annealing with a 3/8's deep socket on a drill and a propane and torch. Angle isn't the best but trying to hit just that neck shoulder junction like your supposed to. Would have used my 750 tempilaq but I couldn't open the jar at all, and flame change always seems to work decent.

So our if the 20 , ten where annealed ten where not .


Interesting enough all the annealed ones seemed to have this same mark/pattern on them

So the it's the same as it's always been since I stared this . No de capping die, shoulder getting bumped back to 1.450". Hand lubing each one individually with imperial sizing wax

So our if the ten in annealed ones I got one crush

And the annealed ..... Well


All ten annealed ones where crushed , not one properly converted case....so yeahhhh, look like KAK was right with this one lol. Will be ordering a .20 cal due soon though as a step die.just gotta see what will work best , looking at possibly a .204 Ruger die or a .20 practical. Well see

 

[Wolfdog91]

So got called and told my boat is still in the ship yard and I don't have to leave out for a bit longer so since most every thing else is done figured I'd play with some loads again would go out an try and make a stand but I'm at like 15-0 so egh.
Anyhow after reading alot about 17-.223 most people got that data from .17 rem data. Wanted to try and use some kinda stick powder to hopefully get some better S-D's I don't like big velocity differences. So was trying to avoid .17 rem data since the cases are a bit different. Was able to find some 17-223 data on hodgdons webs site. They have a online reloading data base deal . They had some for 4895 which I just so happen to have picked up a can a few months back
Not going to lie , a lot of the time with cast I'll just kinda say yolo and try something off the books if it follows a few parameters but when I'm running this fast ....yeaaaahhh no.


I went ahead and went a bit hight then starting just because those loads always run slower in a gas gun and these 17's don't seem to like goin slow.

Trying the 25's again because I now have 3 100rd boxes of them now that all my orders arrived. These are a it longs so figured I'd try doing some seating with them. Found the jam point and backed off 0.004" they go in easy and no movement from being mag loaded.

I do need to get some new low capacity mags , these two 20rd I have are mostly plastic and are wearing out . Don't wanna hold the bold open on the last round out. My metal 30rd will but I hate walking around with those things in the gun .

 

[Wolfdog91]

Same set up as the last few days same brass ejection.
And the targets , bit better then the last bunch of 25gr loads. That 4895 going some good velocities but the group are a bit meh

 

[Wolfdog91]

Think Im going to try and get these up to 3900fps or till I see pressure signs. If I can keep the velocities the way these are I'll just work With seating depth.speaking of , no damaged brass, everything looks pretty decent.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

TIP of the blue flame on the NECK, 4-6 seconds depending on torch/tip setting, gas type and brass. I spin the case about 2 revolutions per second.

 

[Wolfdog91]

TIP of the blue flame on the NECK, 4-6 seconds depending on torch/tip setting, gas type and brass. I spin the case about 2 revolutions per second.

Was always told the neck shoulder junction, intresting, guess I need to try that... That being said I need a different nozzle on that because this one don't give a nice short point like I'm used to was more of a wide deal

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Early in the thread you posted a pic with the Hornady .330 insert caliper and case. Was the caliper zeroed, before case measured? Your # longer than my 17 rem. Just trying to figure out of what your forming die is doing.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Early in the thread you posted a pic with the Hornady .330 insert caliper and case. Was the caliper zeroed, before case measured? Your # longer than my 17 rem. Just trying to figure out of what your forming die is doing.

Talking about these ?
Yeah sizing via manufacturer instructions these cases are forming at 1.450 base to shoulder . After firing their growing to 1.458"

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Yep, that one. You are trimming to 1.750 case length?

 

[Wolfdog91]

1.751 if I remember right let me see if I took a pic of my load data

 

[searcher]

While I realize you got into this venture as a "budget" project to see how it fared, there are some things you can do to make that case forming, reloading and accuracy come together a bit more. You are right on track with the "step down" method of necking down. I highly suggest instead of getting a step-down die - get a Redding Type S full length bushing die - then use mid-range bushings to take the necks down incrementally - usually one mid-step all that is required. I'd go that route as, if you want to continue to improve the accuracy of that rig, neck turning is HUGE in respect to bringing the SD's down and getting far better overall accuracy on the .17 and .20 caliber cartridges, MUCH more so than the larger cartridges. Annealing before taking the shoulder down is tricky, as any over-annealed cases will collapse as you had encountered. They didn't collapse because they were annealed - but because they were over-annealed for those LC cases AND, combined with not stepping down the neck-down process, there was just too much downward force on soft shoulders.

After fireforming, those .17's really like to have the necks turned. The differential in bullet extraction force affects accuracy considerably more than of cases in larger diameter calibers. Each .001" of non-uniformity in those .17's is huge in that caliber, comparatively, to say, a .30 cal. And that is where getting the bushing die comes in handy - as you can re-dial in your neck tension with a different bushing after cutting the necks without need for another die.

Good luck with that continuing project!

 

[wkndwarrior]

Nice thread! I use a bullberry die for case forming, give Troy a call and he can probably make some recommendations. It's maybe $50 for a two sided die that steps to 20 cal then 17. Alternatively, if you slowly form the neck and lift up/ rotate the case that also helps. I anneal after forming to prevent crush.