glued in action removal - Please help

[TaperPin]

I must be one of the few guys that doesn’t see the advantage of an iron, or heated rod over simply heating the action evenly with a small propane torch, well away from the stock.

The thin aluminum flashing sold at Home Depot’s is easy to cut, easy to form, inexpensive, soft (easy to soften cut edges with fine sandpaper to avoid scratches), and deflects heat well. Heck, heavy duty aluminum foil over damp t-shirt material makes a good heat shield for painted surfaces and indirect heat.

Even without a temp gun (who doesn’t have a temp gun?) a few drops of water boiling off quickly shows when it gets to 220ish degrees. To get an entire action up to temp, a heated rod or iron would have to be well above that temp, which doesn’t seem any safer than keeping a small flame constantly moving to slowly bring the temp up.

I will admit to not knowing what I don’t know - Am I missing something?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I must be one of the few guys that doesn’t see the advantage of an iron, or heated rod over simply heating the action evenly with a small propane torch, well away from the stock.

The thin aluminum flashing sold at Home Depot’s is easy to cut, easy to form, inexpensive, soft (easy to soften cut edges with fine sandpaper to avoid scratches), and deflects heat well. Heck, heavy duty aluminum foil over damp t-shirt material makes a good heat shield for painted surfaces and indirect heat.

Even without a temp gun (who doesn’t have a temp gun?) a few drops of water boiling off quickly shows when it gets to 220ish degrees. To get an entire action up to temp, a heated rod or iron would have to be well above that temp, which doesn’t seem any safer than keeping a small flame constantly moving to slowly bring the temp up.

I will admit to not knowing what I don’t know - Am I missing something?

The whole time I was reading your post I was thinking, "he's never done this". And then I got to your last sentence.

I'm not saying your way won't work but it's full of pitfalls for no reason. It just doesn't get any easier than laying an iron on top and giving it a few minutes. Literally one of the easiest jobs there is...most of the time. For those other rare times, I don't see a torch help anything.

I think you should try it sometime, then report back. Who knows, your way might work.

 

[TaperPin]

The whole time I was reading your post I was thinking, "he's never done this". And then I got to your last sentence.

I'm not saying your way won't work but it's full of pitfalls for no reason. It just doesn't get any easier than laying an iron on top and giving it a few minutes. Literally one of the easiest jobs there is...most of the time. For those other rare times, I don't see a torch help anything.

I think you should try it sometime, then report back. Who knows, your way might work.

I am curious what pitfalls you see with torch heating?

I’ve used a small torch for many delicate tasks around painted surfaces for decades, including releasing epoxy, and by comparison an action is a huge simple chunk of metal with easily accessed surfaces quite easy to heat quickly. Anyone who uses a small torch or heat gun around finished surfaces should know the biggest danger is scorching paint - and if they do it enough, coming up with quick effective heat shielding should be automatic. Cutting and bending a simple fitted clamshell out of aluminum flashing takes less time than typing this out. A few layers of masking tape topped off with aluminum tape would work just as well.

I only have hunting rifles so gluing in an action hasn‘t been an option, but it is intriguing. I have a fresh action and newly painted stock on the bench to bed - might as well track down some jb weld and glue it in to see how it releases. I’m guessing it releases just like jb weld releases from other metal objects.

 

[Bc'z]

I am curious what pitfalls you see with torch heating?

I’ve used a small torch for many delicate tasks around painted surfaces for decades, including releasing epoxy, and by comparison an action is a huge simple chunk of metal with easily accessed surfaces quite easy to heat quickly. Anyone who uses a small torch or heat gun around finished surfaces should know the biggest danger is scorching paint - and if they do it enough, coming up with quick effective heat shielding should be automatic. Cutting and bending a simple fitted clamshell out of aluminum flashing takes less time than typing this out. A few layers of masking tape topped off with aluminum tape would work just as well.

I only have hunting rifles so gluing in an action hasn‘t been an option, but it is intriguing. I have a fresh action and newly painted stock on the bench to bed - might as well track down some jb weld and glue it in to see how it releases. I’m guessing it releases just like jb weld releases from other metal objects.

Well to make it a fair test, glue a flat bottom Panda into a stock with super nice paint.

Seriously though...
I've repaired and painted more than a couple stocks that were glue ins where someone tried to release thier actions.
Most stocks I see damaged from removing glued in actions have been broken from bolt handle slot to the rear tang.

 

[LVLAaron]

Sounds like an action puller would be handy

 

[AlNyhus]

Even without a temp gun (who doesn’t have a temp gun?) a few drops of water boiling off quickly shows when it gets to 220ish degrees.

You'd be surprised how useful they are....a guide when removing glued in actions, checking 'annealing' temperature, etc. This one is under $25 and fits in your pocket.

If Christmas is too far away, Harbor Freight has this one that works well for about $15.

12:1 Infrared Laser Thermometer

Amazing deals on this 12:1 Infrared Laser Thermometer at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[AlNyhus]

Sounds like an action puller would be handy

View attachment 1496975

Does yours have a dovetail attachment?

 

[LVLAaron]

Does yours have a dovetail attachment?

Nope. Just the bar that goes in the bolt race

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sounds like an action puller would be handy

View attachment 1496975

Good tool but in the case of removing a glue in, it's not about force or pulling it perfectly straight out. The heat does the work for you. Most come out very easily, when ready.

 

[LVLAaron]

Good tool but in the case of removing a glue in, it's not about force or pulling it perfectly straight out. The heat does the work for you. Most come out very easily, when ready.

Totally. Didn't mean to infer to just break it out.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Totally. Didn't mean to infer to just break it out.

I didn't think so. Just saying, if you hang it by the bbl, the stock may well literally fall off when it's ready. I don't suggest that. Lol!

There seems to be a slight disconnect between those that have never done this and those that have. It really is one of the easiest jobs in the shop if common adhesives(jb, marine tex, devcon) are what's used. Just one of those things that once you do one, it becomes apparent that torches and tools just aren't typically needed is all.

Years ago, I bedded a rifle and somehow got the action too deep, over center. It was also mechanically locked. An iron saved my butt then too.

Using an iron wasn't my idea as it's been used for a long time by others before me but it is THE accepted tool for this job. Not to say that an action puller or a torch won't work too. Just never had the need. Glue ins are mystical to several as they sound permanent, but are far from it if typical epoxies are used. On most actions that utilize a trigger hanger, I don't see a down side to gluing it in, in most applications. Contoured bbls like on hunting rifles, with close wood to metal fit..are not a good candidate if you think the bbl may ever need to come off, etc. As long as the bbl and trigger can be removed with the action in the stock, I think a glue in is often a good option. Use a sealant on action screws that use thru holes to prevent solvents from potentially attacking the glue/bedding. As with many things, there's often more than one way to do things.

 

[LVLAaron]

Agree. I've pulled a couple. It's surprisingly easy. I used a heat gun... high heat low fan and just handled the heat delicately, making sure to not heat the stock. Once the action is warm to the touch the glue turns to bubble gum

 

[Bc'z]

Agree. I've pulled a couple. It's surprisingly easy. I used a heat gun... high heat low fan and just handled the heat delicately, making sure to not heat the stock. Once the action is warm to the touch the glue turns to bubble gum

I've taken great care and patience removing glued in metal from painted stocks.
I remember an instance I was removing escutcheon from a beautifully painted stock with a heat gun. Escutcheon wasn't hot to touch yet I watched the composite shift and swell to where you could clearly see the matting.

Personally I don't see the need for glue-in, I have to work at removing action from a regular bedding job.
Is that fit not sufficient?
Has anyone compared 2 identical rifles for accuracy and precision, only difference being 1 is glued, and 1 isn't?
Is there truly that much of a benefit to gluing an action into a stock?

 

[Bc'z]

Fellas I'm not knocking glue ins I'm just a voice of reason, and caution.
If you want to glue it, glue away.
Now if by chance some unfortunate shit happens
I charge $600 + USPS priority shipping.

Xring broke out at bolt slot you can see glue line. Panda action
Terry Leonard same thing bolt slot to tang broke.
Escutcheon removal, I stripped and repainted stock
Scorched paint
Just remember...

 

[AlNyhus]

One of the Master Bond products that's popular for glue ins will have you wishing your Mother had never met your Father...

 

[Tim Singleton]

Fellas I'm not knocking glue ins I'm just a voice of reason, and caution.
If you want to glue it, glue away.
Now if by chance some unfortunate shit happens
I charge $600 + USPS priority shipping.

Xring broke out at bolt slot you can see glue line. Panda actionView attachment 1497049
Terry Leonard same thing bolt slot to tang broke.View attachment 1497051
Escutcheon removal, I stripped and repainted stockView attachment 1497050
Scorched paintView attachment 1497053
Just remember...View attachment 1497052

A lot of folks have tested glue in vs pillars and normal bedding bolted in
In my experience in short-range bench rest group. Groups that are occasionally .078" or smaller and a 5 group aggregate below .200" the pilar bedding bolt-in just didn't get there. We don't glue them in because we just really want to its IMO a necessity
Most of us are willing to take the bad that may come from it. After all to us it is a tool we do want it to look decent but I don't really care how shiny it is or how many dings it may have if it will shoot a teen 5 shot 5 group agg that should be all that matters

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Fellas I'm not knocking glue ins I'm just a voice of reason, and caution.
If you want to glue it, glue away.
Now if by chance some unfortunate shit happens
I charge $600 + USPS priority shipping.

Xring broke out at bolt slot you can see glue line. Panda actionView attachment 1497049
Terry Leonard same thing bolt slot to tang broke.View attachment 1497051
Escutcheon removal, I stripped and repainted stockView attachment 1497050
Scorched paintView attachment 1497053
Just remember...View attachment 1497052

That copper colored stock looks familiar, Hard to say but is it one that I've worked on? You may or may not have any way of knowing by now.

In regard to testing glued vs bedded, I think if both are done equally well and correctly, You'd be hard pressed to see much if any difference on target but at the least, it does do away with some potential problems. I'll copy and paste a post I've made a few times on here from doing vibration analysis for tuners where we were able to quantify a difference in vibration but not on the target, in this one example. It was very interesting, to say the least.. Not saying one is better than the other but I do prefer a glue and screw with pillars over anything else. Just my 2 cents and there are certainly other opinions and it's hard to disagree with either side of that debate.

Here's a condensed version of the test post...

I've mentioned this before but during one round of bbl vibration analysis testing, we took a glued and screwed gun apart and put it back together using the same 65in/lb value both before and after taking it apart. What we saw was that the gun was somewhat out of tune, by a couple of marks on my tuner but when we re-tuned using only the tuner, tune came back(shooting same) but the bbl was now vibrationg at a different frequency than when it was glued. To me, this proved that every joint in the system moves, when torqued relatively tight vs being unitized/glued. It affected both tune and frequency at the bbl...fwiw.

 

[AlNyhus]

I've posted this before but just as a heads up. Be darn careful with what you do with the barrelled action when it comes out because it's going to be hotter than Dutch love. I inadvertently let this Panda get against the inside of my leg and ended up wearing the Kelbly's brand complete with serial number for quite a while.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I've posted this before but just as a heads up. Be darn careful with what you do with the barrelled action when it comes out because it's going to be hotter than Dutch love. I inadvertently let this Panda get against the inside of my leg and ended up wearing the Kelbly's brand complete with serial number for quite a while.

Sorry Al but the fact that you can almost read the serial number is pretty funny, my friend. Ouch though!--M

 

[Bc'z]

That copper colored stock looks familiar, Hard to say but is it one that I've worked on? You may or may not have any way of knowing by now.

In regard to testing glued vs bedded, I think if both are done equally well and correctly, You'd be hard pressed to see much if any difference on target but at the least, it does do away with some potential problems. I'll copy and paste a post I've made a few times on here from doing vibration analysis for tuners where we were able to quantify a difference in vibration but not on the target, in this one example. It was very interesting, to say the least.. Not saying one is better than the other but I do prefer a glue and screw with pillars over anything else. Just my 2 cents and there are certainly other opinions and it's hard to disagree with either side of that debate.

Here's a condensed version of the test post...

I've mentioned this before but during one round of bbl vibration analysis testing, we took a glued and screwed gun apart and put it back together using the same 65in/lb value both before and after taking it apart. What we saw was that the gun was somewhat out of tune, by a couple of marks on my tuner but when we re-tuned using only the tuner, tune came back(shooting same) but the bbl was now vibrationg at a different frequency than when it was glued. To me, this proved that every joint in the system moves, when torqued relatively tight vs being unitized/glued. It affected both tune and frequency at the bbl...fwiw.

Xring came by way of Dusty for Tommie, I cut toe and pistol grip for poodle shooting.
Terry Leonard came from Greg Brooks.
Red & green stocks came from Zack,
Red stock had just been cut and had rudder installed. It was getting repainted irregardless.
Green stock, what can I say shit happens.

I've got a rifle that is just has pillars but no bedding that shoots small, ill be sure to pay particular attention to see how it shoots once bedded. I'm thinking there will be a little load tweaking.

A lot of folks have tested glue in vs pillars and normal bedding bolted in
In my experience in short-range bench rest group. Groups that are occasionally .078" or smaller and a 5 group aggregate below .200" the pilar bedding bolt-in just didn't get there. We don't glue them in because we just really want to its IMO a necessity
Most of us are willing to take the bad that may come from it. After all to us it is a tool we do want it to look decent but I don't really care how shiny it is or how many dings it may have if it will shoot a teen 5 shot 5 group agg that should be all that matters

I respect your response, especially the willingness to accept the outcome if ever trying to remove from a done rifle.