Testing smallbore ammo lots: tuner tube on or off?

[TRSR8]

There sure as hell is a negative, a faster twist than needed will magnify any bullet imperfections Unless of course you shoot perfect bullets.
A basic principle of CF group shooting is to use a twist that barely stabilizes the bullet,the very reason about 99.9% of IBS and NBRSA group shooters use barrels between 13.5 and 14 twists with a few 13 3/4-7/8 gain twists thrown in

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There sure as hell is a negative, a faster twist than needed will magnify any bullet imperfections Unless of course you shoot perfect bullets.
A basic principle of CF group shooting is to use a twist that barely stabilizes the bullet,the very reason about 99.9% of IBS and NBRSA group shooters use barrels between 13.5 and 14 twists with a few 13 3/4-7/8 gain twists thrown in

I'm very aware of all of that but I test things for myself rather than riding the coat tails of others or what others parrot on the internet. Actual testing proved to me over roughly 6-8 barrels of my own plus bbls for others, that if anything, the edge went to the faster twist. We're talking a 12 twist vs a 13.5-14 twist, not a radically faster twist rate difference. I won the UBR Nationals, grand agg using 68's in a 12 twist, then backed that up a year or so later using 80's in a 12 twist, winning the 200 yard agg in UBR unlimited class. I won the grand agg in 2019 and iirc, there were 111 guns there in all. It was in custom class which had around 70 guns, again, iirc. But I think it was high score overall as well, fwiw. The idea goes way back. Ferris Pindell shot 81gr bullets from a 6PPC 12 twist and said it was like cheating...his words.... and that was what, 45 years ago. Jackets and bullets are better now, mostly.

I'm just telling you what I've seen firsthand in cf so I was asking for the same, firsthand experience in rf...either way.

Testing is how we know things. The internet is full of things to test, but a lot of hogwash too. Some things prove right and some things not at all.

No one should be worried about posting results from real world testing simply because someone is gonna bash them for doing something different.

Thankfully, there are still people who test things. I will say that I've been testing the same theory with a 10 twist and it shoots 68's better than bullets that would seem more twist appropriate, like 87-95 grain bullets. I'll also say that while close, with that one bbl, it's not quite what I'd call competitive consistently, with any weight bullets, so far.

From your post, I assume you have NOT tested the faster twist bbls in rfbr....which was my question was for Tony.

 

[TRSR8]

There’s you……then there’s the best CFBR gunsmiths, and shooters in the world, quite a few I do in fact know, I’ll stick to them.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There’s you……then there’s the best CFBR gunsmiths, and shooters in the world, quite a few I do in fact know, I’ll stick to them.

This is what makes you famous. Ya can't pass up an opportunity to be an...you. Haven't you been banned on here before? Is that why I didn't recognize your screen name and you've been shooting for umpteen years but have a pretty new account on here? Did they let you back on in February of this year or what?

 

[Tim Slater]

Could this be a reason for the use of bloop tubes? To give the bullet a little more time to go to sleep/stabilize before being hit by wind?

Thanks.

When I started shooting smallbore in the '90s some did refer to bloop tubes as "still air tubes". As well as the effect on sight radius, it was said the tune protected bullets as these exited the muzzle. Then wiser heads noted that the propellant gas travels several times faster than bullets do, and is constrained by the tube, creating an atmosphere that's anything but still.

Long tubes can also act as a sail in strong winds

 

[USMCDOC]

I would suggest you go to Benchrest Central and read Pedro's thread on how he got to where he is today. he has a descriptive post on how he tunes. he is a believer of set and forget. that is one way one of the best does it.

Lee

How did I get there (my story)

A great friend of mine challenged me to tell my shooting story. After a couple of days thinking about it, I realize it could be helpful to others to not make the same mistakes I did… So let’s go. It was back on 2014 when I shot my very 1st rimfire benchrest match... So, no more than 9 years...

benchrest.com

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

How did I get there (my story)

A great friend of mine challenged me to tell my shooting story. After a couple of days thinking about it, I realize it could be helpful to others to not make the same mistakes I did… So let’s go. It was back on 2014 when I shot my very 1st rimfire benchrest match... So, no more than 9 years...

benchrest.com

Thanks Randy, in his writing Pedro mentioned about doubting the rifle's tune and that what might seem like something is off is only the one behind the trigger.
Here is further proof of not doubting the tuner setting. you personally know these targets were shot with a CX lot 1918 that I never shot before in this rifle as I got it from you. the extra shots on some of the bulls was to verify it was me and not the ammo or tune. this is something I always do. set and forget I really have no doubt!

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

Could this be a reason for the use of bloop tubes? To give the bullet a little more time to go to sleep/stabilize before being hit by wind?

Thanks.

That slug, relative to the barrel, is as stable as it's going to be upon exit.
Some barrels, it seem will throw a less stable slug, that may stabilize somewhat, down range, some do not.
The best barrels, and a feature of longer ones, allow the slug to "go to sleep" before the muzzle. EvenJames Pappas, largely responsible for "noodles" felt it had more to do with incremental tuning

 

[Tony K Harper]

I'm very aware of all of that but I test things for myself rather than riding the coat tails of others or what others parrot on the internet. Actual testing proved to me over roughly 6-8 barrels of my own plus bbls for others, that if anything, the edge went to the faster twist. We're talking a 12 twist vs a 13.5-14 twist, not a radically faster twist rate difference. I won the UBR Nationals, grand agg using 68's in a 12 twist, then backed that up a year or so later using 80's in a 12 twist, winning the 200 yard agg in UBR unlimited class. I won the grand agg in 2019 and iirc, there were 111 guns there in all. It was in custom class which had around 70 guns, again, iirc. But I think it was high score overall as well, fwiw. The idea goes way back. Ferris Pindell shot 81gr bullets from a 6PPC 12 twist and said it was like cheating...his words.... and that was what, 45 years ago. Jackets and bullets are better now, mostly.

I'm just telling you what I've seen firsthand in cf so I was asking for the same, firsthand experience in rf...either way.

Testing is how we know things. The internet is full of things to test, but a lot of hogwash too. Some things prove right and some things not at all.

No one should be worried about posting results from real world testing simply because someone is gonna bash them for doing something different.

Thankfully, there are still people who test things. I will say that I've been testing the same theory with a 10 twist and it shoots 68's better than bullets that would seem more twist appropriate, like 87-95 grain bullets. I'll also say that while close, with that one bbl, it's not quite what I'd call competitive consistently, with any weight bullets, so far.

From your post, I assume you have NOT tested the faster twist bbls in rfbr....which was my question was for Tony.

I have tested slower twist barrels in rimfire at 50 yards/meters extensively. There was a time I took 16,16.5,17,17.5 and 18 twist barrels to matches with me. I shot 16 twists up to 80 degrees, 85 to 90, 16.5, 90-95, 17 twist anything above 95 17.5 or 18 twist.

These barrels were supplied to me by Time Precision Rifles. I believe they were special ordered from Shilen.

The thinking behind these tests were the success of the Suhl 150's from East Germany. Some of them were shooting very well with factory barrels and they had 17,17.5 and even 18 twist barrels.

It was not unusual for me to start a match with the 16 twist and change after the second or third target. If we took a lunch break and the temp got cranked up, I might change again late in the afternoon.

It seemed to me that the quality of the individual barrel made as much difference as changing the twist rate. But as with most things in rimfire it was never conclusive.

Another thing about twist rates in rimfire barrels. The two groove Benchmarks with their slow twist barrels are hard to beat when it is 95+ degrees shooting in still air. The same barrels that will kill in those conditions will often fail to stabilize bullets in colder conditions.

TKH

 

[BowChamp]

I have tested slower twist barrels in rimfire at 50 yards/meters extensively. There was a time I took 16,16.5,17,17.5 and 18 twist barrels to matches with me. I shot 16 twists up to 80 degrees, 85 to 90, 16.5, 90-95, 17 twist anything above 95 17.5 or 18 twist.

These barrels were supplied to me by Time Precision Rifles. I believe they were special ordered from Shilen.

The thinking behind these tests were the success of the Suhl 150's from East Germany. Some of them were shooting very well with factory barrels and they had 17,17.5 and even 18 twist barrels.

It was not unusual for me to start a match with the 16 twist and change after the second or third target. If we took a lunch break and the temp got cranked up, I might change again late in the afternoon.

It seemed to me that the quality of the individual barrel made as much difference as changing the twist rate. But as with most things in rimfire it was never conclusive.

Another thing about twist rates in rimfire barrels. The two groove Benchmarks with their slow twist barrels are hard to beat when it is 95+ degrees shooting in still air. The same barrels that will kill in those conditions will often fail to stabilize bullets in colder conditions.

TKH

It's not uncommon for us to have 30 to 35 degree swing in temp and 50 to 60 percent swing in humidity while shooting a 3 hour match.


Could some of this twist rate thing also be related to the velocity of the 22LR ammo as temperature goes up and down?

Faster velocity increasing the rpm's and slower velocity decreasing the rpm's?

Anyone have any thoughts on how temperature stable 22LR velocity is and what effects humidity would have while shooting 22LR ?

Thanks!

 

[BowChamp]

Thanks Randy, in his writing Pedro mentioned about doubting the rifle's tune and that what might seem like something is off is only the one behind the trigger.
Here is further proof of not doubting the tuner setting. you personally know these targets were shot with a CX lot 1918 that I never shot before in this rifle as I got it from you. the extra shots on some of the bulls was to verify it was me and not the ammo or tune. this is something I always do. set and forget I really have no doubt!

Lee

Mr. Lee,

During practice I've also been shooting some of the bulls more than once when a shot didn't go where it was suppose to go...........only to find I missed a wind call.

Doing this has helped my flag reading skills.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have tested slower twist barrels in rimfire at 50 yards/meters extensively. There was a time I took 16,16.5,17,17.5 and 18 twist barrels to matches with me. I shot 16 twists up to 80 degrees, 85 to 90, 16.5, 90-95, 17 twist anything above 95 17.5 or 18 twist.

These barrels were supplied to me by Time Precision Rifles. I believe they were special ordered from Shilen.

The thinking behind these tests were the success of the Suhl 150's from East Germany. Some of them were shooting very well with factory barrels and they had 17,17.5 and even 18 twist barrels.

It was not unusual for me to start a match with the 16 twist and change after the second or third target. If we took a lunch break and the temp got cranked up, I might change again late in the afternoon.

It seemed to me that the quality of the individual barrel made as much difference as changing the twist rate. But as with most things in rimfire it was never conclusive.

Another thing about twist rates in rimfire barrels. The two groove Benchmarks with their slow twist barrels are hard to beat when it is 95+ degrees shooting in still air. The same barrels that will kill in those conditions will often fail to stabilize bullets in colder conditions.

TKH

Thanks Tony! I saw some 12 twist rf bbls mentioned on another forum. Seems like a big jump but was wondering if you had tested similar. My thoughts are that just possibly, say a 14 or 15 might do well but I don't know.

 

[TRSR8]

It's not uncommon for us to have 30 to 35 degree swing in temp and 50 to 60 percent swing in humidity while shooting a 3 hour match.


Could some of this twist rate thing also be related to the velocity of the 22LR ammo as temperature goes up and down?

Faster velocity increasing the rpm's and slower velocity decreasing the rpm's?

Anyone have any thoughts on how temperature stable 22LR velocity is and what effects humidity would have while shooting 22LR ?

Thanks!

Years ago I shot barrels up to 18 twist and I shot them in the cold as well. Myself, I did not see a big difference in the cold. Never really shot below 50 deg.
Tony mentioned the 2 groovers but I believed the colder instability had a lot to do with the fact that it was quite hard to make them perfectly round in the bore……..an oblong slug in colder weather is not a great combination.
A big reason you don’t see many these days is shops really cut back on them and when you’re backed up, making those extra buttons is a pain, thus 16 twists prevail with a very few 17’s sprinkled in.
My thoughts remain, over stabilizing bullets RF or CF can have pitfalls, long distance, whole other consideration entirely.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Mr. Lee,

During practice I've also been shooting some of the bulls more than once when a shot didn't go where it was suppose to go...........only to find I missed a wind call.

Doing this has helped my flag reading skills.

I not sure if you do after the first go around or right after the miss. I reshoot after the target is done and just go back over target and reshoot the missed bulls.
like you it helped with reading the wind.

Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

I not sure if you do after the first go around or right after the miss. I reshoot after the target is done and just go back over target and reshoot the missed bulls.
like you it helped with reading the wind.

Lee

You repeat the shot instantly, if the second one goes in the same hole you know it was a condition you missed.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

You repeat the shot instantly, if the second one goes in the same hole you know it was a condition you missed.

IDK, wouldn't it be better to learn to not miss the condition. when I was a kid one Wack on my head usually made me learn not to do it again most of the time

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

I not sure if you do after the first go around or right after the miss. I reshoot after the target is done and just go back over target and reshoot the missed bulls.
like you it helped with reading the wind.

Lee

With my style of shooting, it helps for me to shoot again right after the miss. Sometimes I shoot the same hold and sometimes I hold what the first shot showed. It helps if I learn what I missed so I know what to look for on my flags.
I'm learning more and more how to shoot with one eye on the scope and one eye on the flags. The 12:00 and 6:00 wind was burning me pretty good for sometime till I realized it was actually the 15 to 30 minutes before and after each that burned.

Thanks,

 

[BowChamp]

You repeat the shot instantly, if the second one goes in the same hole you know it was a condition you missed.

This is what has been helping me and I'm getting better at my wind game.

 

[BowChamp]

That slug, relative to the barrel, is as stable as it's going to be upon exit.
Some barrels, it seem will throw a less stable slug, that may stabilize somewhat, down range, some do not.
The best barrels, and a feature of longer ones, allow the slug to "go to sleep" before the muzzle. EvenJames Pappas, largely responsible for "noodles" felt it had more to do with incremental tuning

I will say, I've moved from a 21" barrel to a 26" barrel and am much better off.

Thanks

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

With my style of shooting, it helps for me to shoot again right after the miss. Sometimes I shoot the same hold and sometimes I hold what the first shot showed. It helps if I learn what I missed so I know what to look for on my flags.
I'm learning more and more how to shoot with one eye on the scope and one eye on the flags. The 12:00 and 6:00 wind was burning me pretty good for sometime till I realized it was actually the 15 to 30 minutes before and after each that burned.

Thanks,

I shoot totally opposite; I don't look through the scope when I shoot. my head is up and away from the scope watching my flags. also, my flags are in line with my rifle. so, I get neither a before nor after reading.

Lee