I want to shoot canted!!

[DirtySteve]

M1D's had scopes mounted on the side. Your set up will work but you may have to add a click of windage in at long distances.

 

[jelenko]

If you're not shooting prone, in what position does canting the rifle make it feel more comfortable?

At the same time, if you maintain the same cant angle and arrange the scope as you mentioned, the elevation and windage should work without additional calculations at a given distance.
As DirtySteve mentions, the effect the recoil on a canted rifle increases a bit with distance.

You can check out what the actual effect is at JBM Ballistics with their trajectory calculator https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for taking the time. I had not thought about recoil impulse effects! I think I will reset to conventional mount and one day do some experimenting when I have the time, and If I do not get used to my new stock beforehand! ps: yes I might get better feel by buying a tilting butt plate. My MPA chassis has this.

No worries. Years ago, there was very cool thread at Sniper's Hide on this very topic. The circumstance wasn't exactly the same as what you did with the offset scope, but a similar idea. It was a very interesting read. In any event, the geometry of what is happening with regard to the scope mounting position, the tilt of the rifle and resultant effect on recoil and trajectory, and the possible effect on turret adjustments can be very complex and hard to decipher at just a glance. A simple shooting test as I described carried out at distance where a single turret is adjusted and the effect (if any) on the other turret adjustment plane/direction is relatively painless, and then you'll know one way or the other. If you ever decide to carry out such a test, I'd appreciate hearing about the result. Best of luck with it!

 

[TaperPin]

This should be easy to test with enough ammo and time. The pros and cons are theoretical until a finger is put on the trigger. There are a lot of oddball holds that work, but consistency and shooting a position that feels natural only goes so far. As much as I hated changing my first and most natural feeling silhouette hold, in a matter of only a few months it brought scores up an additional 5 hits out of 40, which is huge.

I tell apprentices at work to master the techniques I’m teaching, only then try to improve on them - if they can find a better way I’ll gladly change. The same works for many things in life.

 

[Thauglor]

It’s parallel with the bore, but that would be true at any position on the clock face. Assume you mount it at 9 o’clock. It still can be parallel. The trouble is that the bullet will fall straight down, always to the right of the crosshairs.

When you click to make impact coincide with the crosshairs, that’s only going to be precise at one exact distance. It will impact to the right until the intersection with the crosshairs and left of them beyond that distance.

When not level /plumb and at the 12, 3, 6, or 9 clock positions to the bore, or when perfectly level at any other position of the clock face relative to the bore, a scope will move impact both up and down AND right and left when you click either knob. How much so, is a trig function.

This is correct up here.

By making the scope plumb with gravity but offset, an elevation change will only be an elevation change. The issue will be changing distances. If you zero it in at say 500, anything closer will be shooting to the right slightly, and anything over 500 will be shooting to the left. The closer the zero the worse the offset at larger distances.

This will work for a fixed target distance game with no guessing and no ranging, and explains nat's service rifle experience and my silhouette experience. You wont see an army unit use it, but since we are only competing it just depends on the game if it is viable or not

 

[Walt Krafft]

Rotate the scope base on the receiver, problem solved. The T2K rifle has multiple mounting holes to allow this and most shooters I know use the canted one. Alternative, make a new pistol grip and stock modifications to make it feel like it is canted and leave the scope straight. Or, quit asking and go shoot it. Find out if it makes a difference to you. Your position will need to be consistent regardless of how you do it.

 

[Eagle Six]

You can shoot it, it's yours but the question was, "Anyone see any reasons why my configuration wont work identically to a 'straight up on top' conventional scope setup?" As you have it setup the answer is no it will work different. You can use it that way, but POA/POI calculations are going to be different/off compared to having the scope dead center over the bore.

 

[Tesoro]

This is correct up here.

By making the scope plumb with gravity but offset, an elevation change will only be an elevation change. The issue will be changing distances. If you zero it in at say 500, anything closer will be shooting to the right slightly, and anything over 500 will be shooting to the left. The closer the zero the worse the offset at larger distances.

This will work for a fixed target distance game with no guessing and no ranging, and explains nat's service rifle experience and my silhouette experience. You wont see an army unit use it, but since we are only competing it just depends on the game if it is viable or not

This is correct up here.

By making the scope plumb with gravity but offset, an elevation change will only be an elevation change. The issue will be changing distances. If you zero it in at say 500, anything closer will be shooting to the right slightly, and anything over 500 will be shooting to the left. The closer the zero the worse the offset at larger distances.

This will work for a fixed target distance game with no guessing and no ranging, and explains nat's service rifle experience and my silhouette experience. You wont see an army unit use it, but since we are only competing it just depends on the game if it is viable or not

I GET the above now! The embarrassing part is I have understood this since the Ford administration but this new concept of plumbing at cant angle got me all 'offset' !! All discussions on this topic should be precluded by the caveat ' It only works at the zero distance' !

So for long range I'm back to leveling my rifle and then plumb bobbing the scope and scope level !!!

Thanks all.

 

[Thauglor]

Glad you got it understood!

That is why the T2K had the holes drilled off center or why you can buy offset scope rings, to get the scope back over the barrel and both aligned with gravity while still casting the action. If you can cant the butt, grip and trigger blade, this can accomplish almost the same feel

 

[Webster]

I just re-stocked my 6br with a MDT chassis and magul prs lite ar15 style butt stock. This ar15 type setup feels so much better when I shoot it canted inwards about 10-15deg. I have straight rings - zero moa. I dont shoot prone.

I re-levelled the scope off a tilting bipod using a plumb line out 30 yds with the cant hold that felt comfortable. And then I adjusted my scope mounted level to the same plumb line. Therefore the scope vertical stadia are in synch with the level.

I know there have been debates over this setup before but the confusion originates on whether or not a +moa rail was being used, which will throw off windage calcs, other than at the zero distance.

In my case the scope is perfectly aligned with the bore and aligned to gravity when at the cant angle. I would like to be able try out this configuration for ranging and dialing at varied distances out to 1000 using my conventional dope.

Anyone see any reasons why my configuration wont work identically to a 'straight up on top' conventional scope setup?

View attachment 1481651

Why does it feel so much better. You body is built like everyone elses. There are so many thinks that have to be done correctly to shoot competively. Why introduce a strange variable?

 

[Tesoro]

Why does it feel so much better. You body is built like everyone elses. There are so many thinks that have to be done correctly to shoot competively. Why introduce a strange variable?

Why does Tubb make a rifle that can be shot canted? Why do many shoot canted in competition? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[squint-n-squeeze]

Why does Tubb make a rifle that can be shot canted? Why do many shoot canted in competition? Inquiring minds want to know!
View attachment 1481809

For most people, canting the rifle helps keep your head upright in standing position. This improves your balance and decreases wobble in your stance.

That's why it's super common in silhouette (100% standing), and somewhat common in XTC (25% standing).

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I shoot mine canted because I’m not level headed

 

[Trevor60]

I believe this to be a angle problem that can be calculated using cosine.
Set up your rifle,
1) take the scope off.
2) Using you iphone or other angle measuring devices, measure the angle of the rifle's cant from the scope ring
3) you will have a angle in degrees, using cosine you can find the vertical difference.
10o is 96%
20o 94%
30o 87%

Horizontal left and right will have different windage as you have canted to the scope to the left this math is beyond.

The easy button would be to shoot each yardage using what ever ballsitic program you have and note the elevation required put it on and adjust until you are centred... do this for each yardage
You can see in the Whidden photo he cant his rifle however you will also note he has set up his sights to be perfectly vertical over bore.

Whidden canted rifle

Trevor

 

[El Matador]

Some ballistic calcs have a spot to input your scope offset (horizontal). The windage really is not that big of a deal. If you have your scope offset 1/2" from the bore due to the canted setup it just means the bullet will start off 1/2" to the right of your line of sight. You can choose to leave it 1/2" to the right or "zero" the gun at a certain distance. Kinda depends on your preference. For example if you sight the gun to shoot 1/2" right at 200 yards then the bullets will stay parallel to your line of sight at any distance. They will always be 1/2" right until acted upon by wind or whatever. If you sight the gun in to hit the bullseye at 200 then the bullets will be traveling sideways at a rate of 1/2" per 200 yards. You'll hit 1/2" left at 400, 1" left at 600, etc. But given the fact that both spin drift and coriolis will tend to push your bullets to the right anyway...those factors will tend to cancel each other out. The big picture is that you can correct for a canted gun quite easily if you want to.

 

[Tesoro]

Some ballistic calcs have a spot to input your scope offset (horizontal). The windage really is not that big of a deal. If you have your scope offset 1/2" from the bore due to the canted setup it just means the bullet will start off 1/2" to the right of your line of sight. You can choose to leave it 1/2" to the right or "zero" the gun at a certain distance. Kinda depends on your preference. For example if you sight the gun to shoot 1/2" right at 200 yards then the bullets will stay parallel to your line of sight at any distance. They will always be 1/2" right until acted upon by wind or whatever. If you sight the gun in to hit the bullseye at 200 then the bullets will be traveling sideways at a rate of 1/2" per 200 yards. You'll hit 1/2" left at 400, 1" left at 600, etc. But given the fact that both spin drift and coriolis will tend to push your bullets to the right anyway...those factors will tend to cancel each other out. The big picture is that you can correct for a canted gun quite easily if you want to.

Interesting but i think if one wants to shoot canted and have the normal trajectory then mount sight corrected like in pic. I wonder if anyone makes rings to counter the offset? Ie 10 deg rings?

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

Interesting but i think if one wants to shoot canted and have the normal trajectory then mount sight corrected like in pic. I wonder if anyone makes rings to counter the offset? Ie 10 deg rings?

I don't see anything wrong with trying it to see if it is for you. If you're shooting like that now and it's working there is no reason to change.

Some of the people seem to have been offended that you wanted to try it to begin with.

@Webster my body is like everyone else's, but that doesn't account for my brain. Maybe @Tesoro is similar.

 

[Albany Mountain]

I shoot with a cant for prone and similar cant for standing so I level the crosshairs and shoot canted with a scope level vertically and horizontally. I have lost no sleep over it or worried about points.
Kenny

 

[Tesoro]

I shoot with a cant for prone and similar cant for standing so I level the crosshairs and shoot canted with a scope level vertically and horizontally. I have lost no sleep over it or worried about points.
Kenny

For my field/hunting rifles I have always set up the scope by plumb bob based on my standing hold. With a midrange zero the offset would be negligible for minute of animal. Never thought more about it. But for me wanting to try dialing for accuracy with a cant hold at varied distances it is confirmed that it wont 'work'. BUT this company can make you custom rings to counter your preferred cant angle to make it work!. ( per Tubb)

Optimum Parts Company

"Accuracy by Design"

optimumpartsco.com

 

[Albany Mountain]

For my field/hunting rifles I have always set up the scope by plumb bob based on my standing hold. With a midrange zero the offset would be negligible for minute of animal. Never thought more about it. But for me wanting to try dialing for accuracy with a cant hold at varied distances it is confirmed that it wont 'work'. BUT this company can make you custom rings to counter your preferred cant angle to make it work!. ( per Tubb)

Custom rings? Just loosen the screws on any rings and rotate. Am I missing something here?