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I want to shoot canted!!

Tesoro

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Gold $$ Contributor
I just re-stocked my 6br with a MDT chassis and magul prs lite ar15 style butt stock. This ar15 type setup feels so much better when I shoot it canted inwards about 10-15deg. I have straight rings - zero moa. I dont shoot prone.

I re-levelled the scope off a tilting bipod using a plumb line out 30 yds with the cant hold that felt comfortable. And then I adjusted my scope mounted level to the same plumb line. Therefore the scope vertical stadia are in synch with the level.

I know there have been debates over this setup before but the confusion originates on whether or not a +moa rail was being used, which will throw off windage calcs, other than at the zero distance.

In my case the scope is perfectly aligned with the bore and aligned to gravity when at the cant angle. I would like to be able try out this configuration for ranging and dialing at varied distances out to 1000 using my conventional dope.

Anyone see any reasons why my configuration wont work identically to a 'straight up on top' conventional scope setup?

4ABF9EA8-D95A-4497-AE1C-29572CF3E977_1_201_a.jpeg
 
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Yep to above. Instead of the vertical, only, being precisely right at one distance, both vertical AND horizontal will intersect the crosshairs at one certain distance.

Envision the scope mounted to the left of the barrel by three inches, (90 degrees instead of 15) and parallel to it. If zeroed at 100 yards, the impact after 100 yards will be further and further left, at longer distances. You’d have to chase that with the scope. You’d also have to chase vertical. Much more work.

If unlimited sighters on fixed target, it would still work fine though, especially if you just center up then hold right and left for wind.
 
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IMO - you should be able to sight it in and work with it as long as you don're require any major elevation/windage adjustments, even if doing so might be a PITA because of how the scope is mounted. If you were to require scope adjustments, in the middle of a match for example , making them is going to be problematic because mounting the scope in that fashion has turned elevation adjustment into windage adjustment and vice versa. It will make the "correct" adjustments more difficult to achieve because the turret adjustment values (i.e. "click" values) will no longer be what they're supposed to be. However, it should still be possible to dial the scope in.

Friends don't let friends shoot canted. ;)
 
IMO - you should be able to sight it in and work with it as long as you don're require any major elevation/windage adjustments, even if doing so might be a PITA because of how the scope is mounted. If you were to require scope adjustments, in the middle of a match for example , making them is going to be problematic because mounting the scope in that fashion has turned elevation adjustment into windage adjustment and vice versa. It will make the "correct" adjustments more difficult to achieve because the turret adjustment values (i.e. "click" values) will no longer be what they're supposed to be. However, it should still be possible to dial the scope in.

Friends don't let friends shoot canted. ;)

All true. At the end of the day, if you set that rifle plumb vertical, you simply have a tilted scope, with the attendant effects.

All the preface about using a level, and plumb lines is distracting because it is immaterial. Any rifle with a tilted scope can be held such that the crosshairs orient vertically and horizontally.
 
It seems to me so far that no one is understanding what he's asking. Heck, I may be the one not understanding.

That's a good question. You'd think that the bullet doesn't know anything but gravity, but with the barrel being held at one point (bottom of receiver), I would think that would affect barrel whip. Wouldn't that affect flight path?
 
This is a tough one! And it is an optical illusion in the pic. The center of the stadia are exactly in line with the bore center, and the scope is 100% parallel with the bore/barrel because it has zero moa rings. The scope is not 'offset' from the bore, which is just a hole in a tube. When I look down my scope using this cant the scope is on top of the barrel and the stadia are plumb. Just the rest of the rifle is cockarsed.

The key I think is that the vertical stadia are plumbed to gravity so it is not 'tilted' as mentioned. It should give the same results as the classic inline top mount for trajectory + windage adjustments but most dont agree. I see my set up in pic as if the receiver was unscrewed 10 degrees and the scope re-adjusted for this. All the receiver does is hold the cartridge in the barrel and fire it.

I might just be plain stoopid but it makes sense to me when I shoulder the rifle as see how the scope is on top and truly level.
 
This is a tough one! And it is an optical illusion in the pic. The center of the stadia are exactly in line with the bore center, and the scope is 100% parallel with the bore/barrel because it has zero moa rings. The scope is not 'offset' from the bore, which is just a hole in a tube. When I look down my scope using this cant the scope is on top of the barrel and the stadia are plumb. Just the rest of the rifle is cockarsed.

It’s not possible for the cross hairs on a tilted scope to be, at the same time, both level horizontally / plumb vertically, and directly over the centerline of the bore.

This is only possible when the scope is both level, and at 0 or 180 degrees (above or below the barrel). The scope can be level in any other position relative to the barrel, but it will necessarily be revolving around the barrel, if so.
 
It’s not possible for the cross hairs on a tilted scope to be, at the same time, both level horizontally / plumb vertically, and directly over the centerline of the bore.

This is only possible when the scope is both level, and at 0 or 180 degrees (above or below the barrel). The scope can be level in any other position relative to the barrel, but it will necessarily be revolving around the barrel, if so.
But the scope isnt 'tilted! it is precisely plumb to gravity! and in line and parallel with the bore!
 
It’s parallel with the bore, but that would be true at any position on the clock face. Assume you mount it at 9 o’clock. It still can be parallel. The trouble is that the bullet will fall straight down, always to the right of the crosshairs.

When you click to make impact coincide with the crosshairs, that’s only going to be precise at one exact distance. It will impact to the right until the intersection with the crosshairs and left of them beyond that distance.

When not level /plumb and at the 12, 3, 6, or 9 clock positions to the bore, or when perfectly level at any other position of the clock face relative to the bore, a scope will move impact both up and down AND right and left when you click either knob. How much so, is a trig function.
 
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But the scope isnt 'tilted! it is precisely plumb to gravity! and in line and parallel with the bore!
For what it's worth, this is how most (all?) silhouette shooters have their scopes mounted. And they're cranking back and forth over significant amounts of elevation. No issues at all. The horizontal part of the reticle must be aligned with the target frame / horizon, of course.
 
I think this thread a contradiction to a closed mindset we have all had on mounting and shooting via scopes, in my case for close to 50 years. What we need to realize is the scope is plumbed level when the rifle is canted so the scope is on top of the barrel and it is shot this way ( and no cant is fine tuned by a level on the scope which is also mated to gravity).
Here is the same pic now but in the shooting position. It is now like the receiver and stock were just twisted to the right but the scope and barrel are dead nuts in line and in a vertical plane.

IMG_2337.jpg
 
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But the scope isnt 'tilted! it is precisely plumb to gravity! and in line and parallel with the bore!
Yes, it is tilted and no, it isn't aligned properly with the bore. As shown in your picture, the elevation turret adjustment will also introduce windage adjustment and vice versa. If you believe it it won't go out and zero the rifle at 500-600 yd. Then put several minutes R adjustment into the scope and see whether doing so also decreases the elevation. I bet it will.
 
Yes, it is tilted and no, it isn't aligned properly with the bore. As shown in your picture, the elevation turret adjustment will also introduce windage adjustment and vice versa. If you believe it it won't go out and zero the rifle at 500-600 yd. Then put several minutes R adjustment into the scope and see whether doing so also decreases the elevation. I bet it will.

Why is not not properly aligned with the bore?! See pic above
 
Do what you want. I went Distinguished on the A2, shooting a cant at 600 yards. Worked fine. Went Presidents shooting square. Worked. At 1,000 on the same rifle, I shoot squared up, except in offhand. Also works fine.

I have shot competition phases with over 45 degrees of cant. It's just another zero.

For the record, though, and from significant time and experience trying and measuring all of the above on everything from ARs to precision rifles to silhouette to sporter CF and RF.....you're better to get the plate to feel good (adjustable), cheek to the right height (adjustable), and just suck it up about the grip angle and shoot square.

Or, just suck up all of the above and focus on sight picture and trigger management.
 
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Why is not not properly aligned with the bore?! See pic above
The rifle itself, which includes the barrel, has what we would call an "upright" orientation. If you look at a typical rifle from the side, the point at which the buttstock contacts the shoulder is generally well below the bore axis. Thus, the muzzle move upwards during the recoil response as the rifle rotates around an imaginary side-to-side axis located somewhere out in front of the action. This side-to-side axis is parallel to the ground (i.e. level) and at right angles with the bore axis. To this end, we want the elevation adjustment axis of the scope perfectly vertical and the windage adjustment axis perfectly horizontal. This prevents turret adjustment of elevation or windage from affecting the other. If the scope is not offset straight above the bore axis, the behavior of the rifle during the recoil impulse will not be the same in relation to the scope turret adjustments as it if the scope was directly above the bore axis because you will have had to tilt the rifle itself in order to keep the scope crosshairs "seemingly" perfectly horizontal/vertical.

As shown in your picture, I believe that by rotating rifle to the left (counterclockwise) and canting the scope to the right, you have also rotated the rifle's natural recoil impulse such that the muzzle end of the barrel will now recoil up and to the left. I believe that will cause the scope elevation and windage turret adjustments to change as I described. In other words, re-position the rifle "correctly", i.e. perfectly upright, with the scope now mounted above and to the right of the bore and see what it does to the scope crosshair. You will see that when the rifle is positioned correctly, the scope crosshair will then be canted.

The bottom line is that this sort of exercise can be tricky. Sometimes things look a certain way to some and different to others, and it can be difficult to tell what is "correct". So by all means, don't take my word for it. Go out and test it for yourself. As I mentioned, the easiest way to do this is to zero the rifle/load at 500-600 yd, then introduce a sizeable amount of right windage turret adjustment into the scope; as much as you can and still keep the bullets on the target. This is also the reason for doing at 500-600 yd. You want to be sure to use sufficient distance for any turret adjustment discreapncies to be readily visible of they occur. The increased distance would also better enable quantifying any observed effect and help to determine whether such an effect could effectively be ignored at shorter distances, let's say maybe 100-200 yd.

IF the way the rifle/scope are adjusted introduce cant into the scope adjustments, you should visibly observe the POI to drop lower as it moves to the right. Further, because some of the windage adjustment will have been changed in to elevation adjustement in this scenario, the POI will not move as far to the right as expected from the adjustment made. In contrast, if the POI moves the expected distance to the right AND remains at the exact same elevation, then your adjustment of the rifle/scope arrangement has apparently not introduced the cant I have described. It's a simple test, but well worth doing if you intend to continue shooting the rifle in this orientation.

Edited to add: if you look at some of the three-way adjustable rifle butt plates (link below), the pad/plate that contacts the shoulder can often be tilted/angled as you have tilted/angled the entire rifle in your picture. It's possible that tilting just the butt plate that contacts the shoulder could provide the "feel" you're looking for, without having to tilt the entire rifle. Something to consider, anyhow.

 
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Thanks for taking the time. I had not thought about recoil impulse effects! I think I will reset to conventional mount and one day do some experimenting when I have the time, and If I do not get used to my new stock beforehand! ps: yes I might get better feel by buying a tilting butt plate. My MPA chassis has this.
 
The key I think is that the vertical stadia are plumbed to gravity so it is not 'tilted' as mentioned. It should give the same results as the classic inline top mount for trajectory + windage adjustments but most dont agree. I see my set up in pic as if the receiver was unscrewed 10 degrees and the scope re-adjusted for this. All the receiver does is hold the cartridge in the barrel and fire it.

I might just be plain stoopid but it makes sense to me when I shoulder the rifle as see how the scope is on top and truly level.
I think you're forgetting about recoil. Think about this...... If you hold a pistol upright, the recoil is back and up. If you hold it 90°, the recoil is back and to the left or right, depending on which way you're holding it. It's not as pronounced with a rifle, but it works the same way.
 

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