Electric Cars -- anyone own one?

[CJ6]

I wonder what the range on that F150 Lightning would be pulling a trailer or hauling in the mountains in say ….. winter ??

Thought I saw a report on that....I believe it cut mileage to about half.

 

[SGK]

Most people who own them have never towed anything. That's why the industry calls them "never-never-never trucks." Never towed. Never hauled. Never been off-road.

We were debating projected EV market penetration. The few people in the mountains (or some states for that matter) are irrelevant to getting to 20-30% market penetration (or more). And a 150 mile day is enormous for most US drivers (with the daily average being 45 miles for men and even less for women). Yeah, the current state of technology doesn't suit all people and all situations, but it's not hard to see EV meeting the needs of most a lot of the time - already, let alone in 10, 15 or 25 years' time. (The rest will eventually have to search for a gas station that hasn't switched fully over to an EV charging station. )

I'm still loving my gas guzzling, aggressive sounding, skiff towing, 5.0L V8 supercharged SUV, but I'm not blind as to the benefits and momentum behind EV (subsidized or not). Hop in a Tesla Plaid (for example) and floor it. It really is a "holy sh*t" moment - even when I'm not a fan of Teslas generally.

 

[M-61]

PS: I wasn't surprised to see the Ford F150 Lightning can do 0-60 in 4s, faster than Range Rover's premium vehicle Sport SVR. That can make a pickup truck a lot more fun. (Maybe I should trade in my SVR on one.)

Yeah. One run. Ask to race 3 times. Oh the 8 hour charge time between each run…. well.
Go to a track . 1/4 mile. Watch a Tesla tear it up. But just for the first run.
As far as recycling? I don’t have clue. China has been involved in South America for years.

 

[Buckeye_68]

The car manufacturers are definitely all in on electric, given the fact that they require no transmission to function . The transmission is the most expensive part of producing the vehicle so it’s a win for the manufacturer .
I agree with the fact that most people don’t drive very far on a daily commute, but there are those that like to travel a bit after retirement and the technology just isn’t there yet for this . Not to mention the long lines at the charging stations when this eventually becomes “REALITY” ….. So much do do to make our infrastructure compatible for such a demand …..

 

[Buckeye_68]

1. If, like me, you keep a car for 15+ years, you should research battery life for the choice of vehicle.

2. Look at the cost of battery pack replacement and repair after the warranty expires.

3. Check how to enter car if the battery goes completely dead -- this has been an issue with Teslas.

4. Seriously consider how and when you would use the auto-drive feature. This depends on sensors that can fail or be blocked by rain, road debris etc. There was an incident in my state. Tesla driver was using the auto-drive feature. It failed and drove him at full speed into a concrete lane barrier and he was killed instantly.

5. Understand that true range is significantly less with cold weather and with hills.

6. Look at the resale value AFTER the cars go off warranty. You might be surprised.

7. Toyota is coming out with EVs with solid state batteries. Promised date is "late 2025". That could significantly affect the value of Teslas.

8. I have friends with Toyota Prius hybrids. These Prius cars have proved exceptionally reliable, and one has over 350,000 miles on the original battery pack, and the owner says she averages about 48 mpg.

Bullet point 7 ….. Tesla is after the luxury EV market …. Toyota not so .
These are 2 different markets so I doubt Tesla will be impacted much by Toyota…. Maybe by Elizabeth warren if she gets her way

1. If, like me, you keep a car for 15+ years, you should research battery life for the choice of vehicle.

2. Look at the cost of battery pack replacement and repair after the warranty expires.

3. Check how to enter car if the battery goes completely dead -- this has been an issue with Teslas.

4. Seriously consider how and when you would use the auto-drive feature. This depends on sensors that can fail or be blocked by rain, road debris etc. There was an incident in my state. Tesla driver was using the auto-drive feature. It failed and drove him at full speed into a concrete lane barrier and he was killed instantly.

5. Understand that true range is significantly less with cold weather and with hills.

6. Look at the resale value AFTER the cars go off warranty. You might be surprised.

7. Toyota is coming out with EVs with solid state batteries. Promised date is "late 2025". That could significantly affect the value of Teslas.

8. I have friends with Toyota Prius hybrids. These Prius cars have proved exceptionally reliable, and one has over 350,000 miles on the original battery pack, and the owner says she averages about 48 mpg.

 

[3Sigma]

A very dated and narrow view, in my opinion. It omits, for example, the fact that the lithium in old batteries can be recycled - potentially meeting 60% of future demand. And it's news to me that China controls Latin America or particularly Bolivia, Mexico and Chile. Resource nationalism there is a bigger issue. For a more informative view around lithium see, for example, https://www.energy-transitions.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/ETC_Materials_Factsheet_Lithium.pdf and a presentation covering all critical resources required for the transition see https://www.energy-transitions.org/publications/material-and-resource-energy-transition/ Lots of progress being made across many fronts.

PS: I wasn't surprised to see the Ford F150 Lightning can do 0-60 in 4s, faster than Range Rover's premium vehicle Sport SVR. That can make a pickup truck a lot more fun. (Maybe I should trade in my SVR on one.)

The average US male vehicle owner drives a mere 45 miles a day (women drive less). Even current EV technologies provide plenty of range for a very large proportion of the population...

Not dated. Realistic.

The only company that I know about that is pursuing a commeially viable lithium recycling solution is Redwood Materials. They need the supply of worn out lithium batteries to increase to be profitable. Right now, the cheapest place to get lithium is the ground, and China has the ore processing market cornered.

This is all ignoring differences in battery chemistry. LiMCo will be different than LiFePo.

Most who are pro EV live east of the Appalachians, west of the Sierras, south of the Ohio River, and in cities/suburbs. For the rest of us, EVs are secondary vehicles at best, good for commuting and errands, not a whole lot else.

 

[SGK]

For the rest of us

The rest of you don't matter a dime for 20-30% market penetration (or even 50%)...

 

[3Sigma]

The rest of you don't matter a dime for 20-30% market penetration (or even 50%)...

If you want more than piecemeal acceptance, it needs to matter at some point. Otherwise the government needs to stop forcing the square peg into the round hole.

EVs work well where they work, but assuming a one size fits all solution is misguided IMHO. Until there is an order of magnitude increase in energy density and a 50% reduction in $/Wh, it will stay at 5 to 10% market penetration. Or, the automotive and light truck fleet continues to age and we turn into Cuba.

 

[markT]

I haven't read all the posts, but I read where Toyota is focused / pursuing Hydrogen...
The below is from Google Search:

Toyota tops the list of who makes the most cars. It's Number One in the world. It sold nearly 10.5 million vehicles in 2021, more than anyone else. Next up is the Volkswagen Group, which has more brands than you can shake a stick at.Apr 21, 2022

Hydrogen makes more sense than a dang battery.

 

[xr650rRider]

Hydrogen has as many downsides. One you need to fill to around 10,000 psig to have any range. Filling a vehicle with cryogenic level hydrogen might be fun. Nozzle freeze to your vehicle or you get frostbite and lose a digit. Maybe your vehicle comes with PPE to handle high pressure flammables.

But if you want to get rich, then startup a hydrogen extraction business. Requires 2x as much input energy as you get back but hey there is billions of money waiting for an entrepreneur. Doesn't have to really work, just like most large solar projects.

 

[markT]

Toyota may be doing some bs to throw off competition. Time will tell.

 

[xr650rRider]

Toyota may be doing some bs to throw off competition. Time will tell.

They have an enormous amount of capital tied up in fuel cell technology, so they need it to succeed.

 

[RegionRat]

There is thermodynamics, economics, and engineering on one hand, and the propaganda and politics of oligarchs and dictators on the the other. In between, we try to run our own lives.
Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it at the cost of your freedom to decide to use it....

 

[Geronimo Jim]

What really sucks to me a about electric cars is that the government is using my money
to subsidize a industry that could not succed in the free market on its own.

 

[Knotwild]

Pretty good read. It appears all this environmental and EV stuff is what comes out of the south end of a north bound bull.

EV Benefits a Dream?

 

[dellet]

People really need to look at the process of mining lithium. Numbers from Thacker’s pass in Nevada are staggering.

500,000 gallons of water per 2000 pounds of Lithium, they are projected to use 1.7 billion gallons of water annually when operating at full speed, providing around 10% of the worlds lithium need.

If those numbers are reasonably close to correct, 250 gallons of water per pound of lithium, Tesla has one of the heaviest batteries weighing in with roughly 135 pounds of lithium. 33,750 gallons of water per battery. Wonder how many gallons of water needed to make an over the road truck battery?

Time to really look at the true environmental cost of electric vehicles.

But before researching that, a good place to start is by finding out actually owns “Lithium Americas”, Ganfeng, is probably a good place to start the search.

 

[Knotwild]

What I'm looking at is this: If you have an electric car they can control when and how much you can charge it/use it. And once they get digital currency in place, they can control how much you spend, when you spend it, how long you have to spend it, and what you spend it on.

 

[GotRDid]

KTP has installed about 20 charge stations in the Plant parking lot. The irony is that there are only a few of our 9,000+ Employees that drive EVs, and they are made by Ford’s competitors. Likewise, with parking space at a premium given 10-11.5 hour workdays running two shifts per day, the incoming workers just park in the charging stations to avoid being late.
The few Ford Hybrids that are still in circulation and used to commute to the Plant certainly do not justify the “vision” of Corporate’s investment in these stations.
The new Battery Plant under contraction down I-65S at Glendale, KY, is still a couple of years away from from any significant production. This is a co-venture with South Korea’s SK battery maker.
Ford encourages all Employees to drive Ford vehicles, yet exited the affordable compact car market a couple of years ago. Now that the Employees from the mass hirings of 1992-1993, 1995, 1999-2001 are either retired or will soon be, many of the new hires are at or near the lower tiers in pay. That said, few can afford even the lower level vehicles remaining in our line. I see a lot of imports in the lots these days, but I totally understand.

 

[GotRDid]

For me personally, I still prefer….

 

[TaperPin]

While fully electric trucks aren’t that useful out west, I did find it very interesting that hybrid pickups will soon have more towing horse power than fully gas or diesel models. I’m not sure if it’s a sneaky way into this market, or if it will be a useful option. My wife’s hybrid Rav 4 can smoke the tires, yet gets 40mpg in town or on the hiway - neither of which the gas model can do.