How do i keep the group together?

[rwj]

I have a saying that goes……”there are only a few things that will compel a bullet to take the exact same path to the target as the one before, but an untold number of things that will make it go astray”.

I like that saying! Is it correct to believe that load/rifle is in tune, but that one of the many things that can make a bullet go astray occurred on the fifth shot?

 

[J.D.Erwin]

He is shooting at 100 yards. He is shooting a 6PPC. I am sure he has read the numerous posts made on various Forums about how well a Short Range 6PPC combination should shoot.

I have always believed that the game is about barrels, bullets, and tuning. Most of the other stuff that everybody always talk about, (aside from reading conditions), is simply widow dressing.

you can go to any Region Level Match, or even a National Event, and true, there will always be a certain percentage of shooters who are at that magic “.200 and below” agging capability”. But it doesn’t take very far down the page untill you start seeing Aggs made up of groups that look just like what the OP posted.

The usual comments…..”I must have missed that condition”. “My bags aren’t alined perfect”. Everything but the simple truth…….The Rifle ain’t working.

Why does nobody want to admit that. Simple. Arriving at, and maintaining a competitive tune is possibly the most difficult aspect of Short Range Benchrest.

I have always adhered to the methods Tony Boyer perfected. Find a load combination that you KNOW will work, and stick with it. If a barrel will not shoot it, you have to decide how much powder, how many primers, and how many bullets you are going to waste trying to find something it likes.

After I “break in” a new barrel, I can tell within 25 shots if it is staying on the Rifle. It’s the same with bullet lots. You have got to know if the combination of components can be competitive.

80% of short range Benchrest is in the Rifle. Shooters who don’t believe that don’t know much about Short Range Benchrest. They refuse to believe that the latest barrel they just spent this side of $1000 getting put on just isn’t up to the task. Or the latest lot of bullets they just received all seem to want to avoid each other on the target.

I never had an opportunity to attend one of Tony Boyer’s schools. I know several who have. The very first thing he would do is anylized the capability of their Rifle. Then he would be brutally honest with them.

“This Rifle is not going to cut it”

I have mentored several shooters at Tomball this past year, two are now shooting in Matches and are NBRSA members. I do the same thing, (we are talking score, not Group), I shoot their rifle and give them an honest assessment as to its capabilities. If they have one of the top bullet makers bullets, and if they have a top notch barrel, we can work on a tune. If it refuses to cooperate, It’s time for the hard facts of Benchrest.

As I said in a previous post. Benchrest is not that difficult. Being competitive is.

What Jackie said is priceless info, I would keep reading it until I completely understood that he not being negative he's providing information that takes a long time to experiments on your own.

 

[ShtrRdy]

ShtrRdy: There's some great tips here from seasoned guys that know how to win and have the bonafides to back it up.

You mentioned that you shoot free recoil. The guns balance point can contribute to on-target vertical shots even with a well tuned up gun when shooting free recoil. The shots will normally drop out the bottom.

I'd suggest checking that as a starting point in your problem solving.

Good shootin' -Al

Thanks for the suggestion Al. How should I go about determining if my rifle is balanced? It's a BAT DS glued into a Scarbrough stock and sports a March 50x scope. 21.5" light varmint barrel. The barrel weighs close to 5 pounds and everything else weighs about 5 pounds. There is some amount of weight in the butt of the stock but I haven't measured it.

 

[D Coots]

I have a saying that goes……”there are only a few things that will compel a bullet to take the exact same path to the target as the one before, but an untold number of things that will make it go astray”.

When When a Rifle is in a really good tune, it’s amazing how well everything else works.

The days when your rifle stays in tune you wonder why other folks are struggling....

 

[AlNyhus]

Thanks for the suggestion Al. How should I go about determining if my rifle is balanced?

A quick and dirty way is to just hold a wooden dowel, etc out and set the bottom of the stock on it. Move the gun back and forward until it balances. That's your balance point. Put a piece of tape there and mark it. That way, if you move stuff around you can see how it changes the balance point. They don't have to be perfectly on the balance point to shoot well, though. The distance between the bags and how far past the front bag the fore end stop is also plays into this.

@jimmymac recently did some work in this area, though it involved adding some weight. Maybe he'll chime in with some thoughts.

For what it's worth.... -Al

 

[ShtrRdy]

A quick and dirty way is to just put a wooden dowel, etc across the bottom of the stock and move the gun back and forward until it balances. That's your balance point. Put a piece of tape there and mark it. That, if you move stuff around you can see how it changes the balance point. They don't have to be perfectly on the balance point to shoot well, though. The distance between the bags and how far past the front bag the fore end stop is also plays into this.

@jimmymac recently did some work in this area, though it involved adding some weight. Maybe he'll chime in with some thoughts.

For what it's worth.... -Al

Thanks for the suggestion Al. Is there a favored spot between the front and rear bags that the rifle balance point should be?

 

[AlNyhus]

Thanks for the suggestion Al. Is there a favored spot between the front and rear bags that the rifle balance point should be?

Man...I'd hate to say. It depends. Clear as mud, right?

Maybe take a pic of it and post it here...it would be good to hear the input from the successful Group shooters working with the PPC's on this.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[Webster]

Lots of good information here. This is what I was hoping for.

As for the holes in this picture, the paper is cardstock material that I printed off targets. This shooting was informal shooting between myself and an old friend. We shoot 5-shot groups against each other.

This past weekend I attended a local group shoot and, during one of the contests, 4 out of 5 targets I had a nice little 4-shot group and a fifth shot that was a bullet hole or more away.

The rifle cannot count to 5.

 

[jimmymac]

so how can the rifle be in tune but not group….

It could any number of things. Poor gun handling, not paying enough attention to the wind flags, scope not up to the task, something amiss in front rest and rear bag setup, etc.

It can be frustrating when something looks like it should be working but doesn’t. When I’ve run into those situations where I cannot get the gun to group consistently in spite of my best efforts, I’ll usually swap out the scope for another one that I know has a good track record. If nothing changes, then I look elsewhere and continue the process of elimination changing only one thing at a time.

 

[Fuj]

It could any number of things. Poor gun handling, not paying enough attention to the wind flags, scope not up to the task, something amiss in front rest and rear bag setup, etc.

It can be frustrating when something looks like it should be working but doesn’t. When I’ve run into those situations where I cannot get the gun to group consistently in spite of my best efforts, I’ll usually swap out the scope for another one that I know has a good track record. If nothing changes, then I look elsewhere and continue the process of elimination changing only one thing at a time.

I still can't figure out head winds. Apparently you, Keefe and Gates
had it figured out at the last match.

I had a few targets during testing one of my cats that would spit
the last few, and it turned out to be the front rest and bag. Once
I settle the rifle in, I tighten the front bag up a bit and slide it back
and forth. Well after a few shots, the front bag tension on the sides
was loose and the last shots went. In my case, high. In a nut shell, the
balance on the rifle was bad.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I determined where my rifle is balanced and took a picture while set up at the range.

There is a blue line on the masking tape which locates the balance point.

How does this look to you?

 

[Shooter13]

The fifth shot I mentioned is for that particular 5-shot group.

Regarding getting off the the gun too quickly, since I am using a free recoil approach how does a shot get thrown if I move when the shot goes off if I'm not touching the rifle? (I do believe this can happen I would just like to understand why/how)

Could you be touching the bag with your shoulder?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Could you be touching the bag with your shoulder?

I may be touching the bag with chest/armpit area.

 

[Shooter13]

I may be touching the bag with chest/armpit area.

That will certainly do it!

 

[JFrank]

From a previous discussion you’ll find some great insight from Bart and many others..

What causes split groups

I’m asking for you fellas input on the cause of these types of groups, I’ve seen far too many with my name attached to the target. These are 6mm rounds shot at 1000 yards Br. All input is appreciated, Thx ..Jim

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[gpoldblue]

The days when your rifle stays in tune you wonder why other folks are struggling....

The whole shooting system must stay in tune and that includes the shooter!

 

[D Coots]

When competiting in BR my shooting system starts with tune, without it....... I have a varmit rifle.

 

[Ccrider]

Below is a load I am working up. Several 2 and 1 groups. You notice I marked the one shot that I pulled. I know the 2 and 1s were rifle tune-period. Not wind, because I use flags, not setup because I have a solid setup and know as soon as I break the shot whether all is good.

If I have any doubt, I reload the load and shoot it over to see if it repeats. They almost always look about the same the second time around.The more I shoot, the more comfortable I get. Don’t see any other way to do it