How do i keep the group together?

[Mulligan]

He is shooting at 100 yards. He is shooting a 6PPC. I am sure he has read the numerous posts made on various Forums about how well a Short Range 6PPC combination should shoot.

I have always believed that the game is about barrels, bullets, and tuning. Most of the other stuff that everybody always talk about, (aside from reading conditions), is simply widow dressing.

you can go to any Region Level Match, or even a National Event, and true, there will always be a certain percentage of shooters who are at that magic “.200 and below” agging capability”. But it doesn’t take very far down the page untill you start seeing Aggs made up of groups that look just like what the OP posted.

The usual comments…..”I must have missed that condition”. “My bags aren’t alined perfect”. Everything but the simple truth…….The Rifle ain’t working.

Why does nobody want to admit that. Simple. Arriving at, and maintaining a competitive tune is possibly the most difficult aspect of Short Range Benchrest.

I have always adhered to the methods Tony Boyer perfected. Find a load combination that you KNOW will work, and stick with it. If a barrel will not shoot it, you have to decide how much powder, how many primers, and how many bullets you are going to waste trying to find something it likes.

After I “break in” a new barrel, I can tell within 25 shots if it is staying on the Rifle. It’s the same with bullet lots. You have got to know if the combination of components can be competitive.

80% of short range Benchrest is in the Rifle. Shooters who don’t believe that don’t know much about Short Range Benchrest. They refuse to believe that the latest barrel they just spent this side of $1000 getting put on just isn’t up to the task. Or the latest lot of bullets they just received all seem to want to avoid each other on the target.

I never had an opportunity to attend one of Tony Boyer’s schools. I know several who have. The very first thing he would do is anylized the capability of their Rifle. Then he would be brutally honest with them.

“This Rifle is not going to cut it”

I have mentored several shooters at Tomball this past year, two are now shooting in Matches and are NBRSA members. I do the same thing, (we are talking score, not Group), I shoot their rifle and give them an honest assessment as to its capabilities. If they have one of the top bullet makers bullets, and if they have a top notch barrel, we can work on a tune. If it refuses to cooperate, It’s time for the hard facts of Benchrest.

As I said in a previous post. Benchrest is not that difficult. Being competitive is.

This is pure gold.
Thanks Jackie

CW

 

[jimmymac]

This is NOT a smartass comment….but you never addressed the original question… I see this all the time, someone says look at the bullet hole it’s not in tune, but no one’s ever written a good explanation. What dont you like about the bullet holes? Not the group formation etc.

A single bullet hole on the paper should burn a nice symmetrical round hole. If the hole does not look perfectly round, the gun is out of tune.

 

[jimmymac]

Personally, when I look at those two pictures it is hard for me to ascertain if the gun is in tune or not. There is a lot of torn paper around the edges and that could be caused by more than a tune problem. The shape of the bullet hole is pretty dependent on the quality of the target paper as well as the backer. It’s also easier to analyze single holes.

 

[JFrank]

Personally, when I look at those two pictures it is hard for me to ascertain if the gun is in tune or not. There is a lot of torn paper around the edges and that could be caused by more than a tune problem. The shape of the bullet hole is pretty dependent on the quality of the target paper as well as the backer. It’s also easier to analyze single holes.

Me too, I’m not a short range guy but I think I would have to see the tuning groups on each side of the targets that are posted to have any further input.

 

[gary ocock]

How do i keep the group together? I just can't help myself. Buy a lot of alcohol, drugs and hookers that will keep the guys together. Write a very successful song and make lots of money, that will help as well.

Now my thoughts on the real question.
Holes in the paper as mentioned is dependent on the paper; what and how it was attached to the backer.

First thoughts are powder charge and perhaps seating depth. However, 5th shot always in the same place - the shooter or the rest.
If you can, have a known successful shooter shoot your gun with all your stuff.
If no one is available. When you have a nice 4 shot group as shown in the pics take a 5-10 second break, move to another bull a see if you can put the 5th shot in the same spot as the 4 shots. If you can then it was you; if not, then it's a load problem. The key here is the 5th shot.
As an aside I often put a shot on my practice target in an odd spot and then fire shots trying to finish as a group; very good practice for chasing in match situations.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Are you using a joystick style front rest? Are you releasing you grip while firing?
Then again, you could be just out of tune.
Maybe get another BR shooter to shoot your gun with that load and see if there is any difference.

Yes, I'm using a SEB NEO . I think I'm releasing the joystick before firing but maybe .......

 

[jimmymac]

Yes, I'm using a SEB NEO . I think I'm releasing the joystick before firing but maybe .......

There are two schools of thought on whether or not to hold the joystick through the shot. Some are adamant that you have to. Others are content with a hands off approach.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Lots of good information here. This is what I was hoping for.

As for the holes in this picture, the paper is cardstock material that I printed off targets. This shooting was informal shooting between myself and an old friend. We shoot 5-shot groups against each other.

This past weekend I attended a local group shoot and, during one of the contests, 4 out of 5 targets I had a nice little 4-shot group and a fifth shot that was a bullet hole or more away.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Is it the 5th shot that's the culprit every time..?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Is it the 5th shot that's the culprit every time..?

In the picture shown it was the fifth shot on one target and the forth shot on the other target.

 

[Clancy]

I’d definitely have moved the charge up or down that day, but as for tomorrow, that load may work fine. I think the only thing you’ve got to worry about is keeping the gun in perfect tune.

 

[Ccrider]

This is pure gold.
Thanks Jackie

CW

Yep. What CW said. Pure Gold. At least for those that will listen.

 

[Ccrider]

A single bullet hole on the paper should burn a nice symmetrical round hole. If the hole does not look perfectly round, the gun is out of tune.

Succinctly stated.

 

[Bronsin]

Will your gun track back to the point of aim after the shot? Or do you have to move it a lot to get back on target?

 

[gpoldblue]

In the attached picture are two groups that have four shots overlaying each other and a fifth shot that opens it up quite a bit. I'm thinking it is something I am doing but I don't know what. Please let me know what you think might have happened.

On the top target it was the fifth shot that dropped down and right. On the bottom target it was the forth shot that dropped down. I'm shooting free recoil with a 6PPC bench gun.

On the same day most of my other five shot targets were a 'blob' of inter connected bullet holes from 0.206" to 0.315" at 100 yards.

Looks like the gun wants to shoot. Were these the 1st..2nd..5th..etc. groups? Maybe the groups are opening up because the rifle needs a thorough cleaning. My 6PPc's progressively start opening up as the barrel gets dirtier. I typically shoot 2 fouling shots and no more than 3 5 shot groups without cleaning. In matches,I clean after every target. Keep your barrels clean and cool. Heat is one of your biggest enemies.
Also.wind conditions may be the culprit since it was the 5th shot on one target and the 4th shot on the other.
Hope you are using wind flags. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Will your gun track back to the point of aim after the shot? Or do you have to move it a lot to get back on target?

I don't think it returns exactly to the aim point. I'll need to pay closer attention to this. Thanks -- Todd

 

[ShtrRdy]

Looks like the gun wants to shoot. Were these the 1st..2nd..5th..etc. groups? Maybe the groups are opening up because the rifle needs a thorough cleaning. My 6PPc's progressively start opening up as the barrel gets dirtier. I typically shoot 2 fouling shots and no more than 3 5 shot groups without cleaning. In matches,I clean after every target. Keep your barrels clean and cool. Heat is one of your biggest enemies.
Also.wind conditions may be the culprit since it was the 5th shot on one target and the 4th shot on the other.
Hope you are using wind flags. Good luck and stay safe.

I do use flags when practicing or friendly competition.

The groups in the picture were the 4th and 5th group after cleaning. The first three groups were more of a 'blob' shape.

Thanks -- Todd

 

[BoydAllen]

Many years ago, after doing a lot of .22 RF bench shooting, a friend had a 6PPC built by a notable smith. He did really well with it, but by the time that his first barrel was wearing out he had lost something in average group size. He had a couple of new barrels chambered, with no luck, and even ordered a new rifle, thinking that something had gone wrong with his, with no luck. Finally, I asked him if he wanted me to help him figure it out. I went over everything he was doing and carefully watched him shoot. It turned out that there were about a dozen little things that had added up to the accuracy loss, and once they were attended to, his old groups came back, with his original rifle with a new barrel. The OP has asked the impossible, because we have too little information from him to properly figure anything out. To do this on a forum would require more work than most would want to put in, asking a long list of questions, and assuming that the answers were accurate. IMO this needs some one on one time looking at the whole picture. On the free recoil thing. I know of some very good shooters that do not use that method. IMO it is the most equipment intensive shooting style. Rifle balance, and bags need to be perfect to get the best results. A long time back, after tuning up my rig so that it would shoot free, I taught myself to shoot just as well in contact with the rifle, because with a windage top I was slower free, and in some situations where I wanted to run, using the other style had advantages. This is not as simple as one would think. I discovered that there are some rules for shooting contacting the rifle. It took some trial and error to figure them out.

 

[gpoldblue]

Succinctly stated.

The shape of the bullet hole has nothing to do with the tune. All the shape means is whether the bullet went in straight or whether it was unstable for some reason. Example being a bullet fired and then went transsonic
downrange.

A single bullet hole on the paper should burn a nice symmetrical round hole. If the hole does not look perfectly round, the gun is out of tune.

The shape of the bullet hole has nothing to do with the tune. All the shape means is whether the bullet went in straight or whether it was unstable for some reason. Example being a bullet fired and the went transsonic downrange.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Many years ago, after doing a lot of .22 RF bench shooting, a friend had a 6PPC built by a notable smith. He did really well with it, but by the time that his first barrel was wearing out he had lost something in average group size. He had a couple of new barrels chambered, with no luck, and even ordered a new rifle, thinking that something had gone wrong with his, with no luck. Finally, I asked him if he wanted me to help him figure it out. I went over everything he was doing and carefully watched him shoot. It turned out that there were about a dozen little things that had added up to the accuracy loss, and once they were attended to, his old groups came back, with his original rifle with a new barrel. The OP has asked the impossible, because we have too little information from him to properly figure anything out. To do this on a forum would require more work than most would want to put in, asking a long list of questions, and assuming that the answers were accurate. IMO this needs some one on one time looking at the whole picture. On the free recoil thing. I know of some very good shooters that do not use that method. IMO it is the most equipment intensive shooting style. Rifle balance, and bags need to be perfect to get the best results. A long time back, after tuning up my rig so that it would shoot free, I taught myself to shoot just as well in contact with the rifle, because with a windage top I was slower free, and in some situations where I wanted to run, using the other style had advantages. This is not as simple as one would think. I discovered that there are some rules for shooting contacting the rifle. It took some trial and error to figure them out.

What you're saying about my situation is true. I realize I may not get to the bottom of this via forum conversations. I was hoping to get some suggestions from people who may have been had a similar problem and solved it in some way.

Thank you for the story of your friend having new problems. Would you mind describing the things you noticed that helped his situation?

Thanks -- Todd