Harrison M300 Lathe

[butchlambert]

You can do multiple motors on one vfd but it has to be able to handle the sum of all motors horsepower
My surface grinder has a spindle motor and a hyd feed motor , both 1 hp
A 2hp vfd runs them fine

John, I asked you a question and it disappeared.

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

And enough spindle bore.

Which is exactly why the South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) is such a popular lathe for gunsmiths.

It is not near the lathe that the M300 is, they're in a different class all together, but the 10L is plenty good enough for most gunsmith work. The barrel itself has some to do with it...if you have a bad barrel there is no lathe on the planet that will make it better. Sure, you can change the OD, but the ID is pretty much set.

EDIT: One thing to note, most VFDs start to get pricey going over 3HP, the price for a VFD that will go from 1 phase into 3 phase start to get exorbitant. Every situation is different and you need to look at each one on a case by case basis. There is no way to blanket everyone's situation into a generalization. My $0.02

There's an amazing gunsmith (IMO) that used to moderate the Practical Machinist forum, his name is Rod Henrickson, he's up in Alberta. He has a fairly inexpensive Chinese 13x40 lathe, but he can do wonders on it. The old adage, a great craftsman never blames his tools. I wonder how Rod is doing up there now that Trudy is trying to take everyone's firearms away...same plan seems to be backfiring on the left in America...

 

[Addley]

You can do multiple motors on one vfd but it has to be able to handle the sum of all motors horsepower
My surface grinder has a spindle motor and a hyd feed motor , both 1 hp
A 2hp vfd runs them fine

Do you think if I installed a 5 hp VFD, that I could just plug the lathe in and it will run fine (lathe has 3 phase 3 hp motor, 3 phase small oil pump, single phase controls)?

 

[butchlambert]

So, can you use the pot for variable speed for each motor. Remember John,

Which is exactly why the South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) is such a popular lathe for gunsmiths.

It is not near the lathe that the M300 is, they're in a different class all together, but the 10L is plenty good enough for most gunsmith work. The barrel itself has some to do with it...if you have a bad barrel there is no lathe on the planet that will make it better. Sure, you can change the OD, but the ID is pretty much set.

EDIT: One thing to note, most VFDs start to get pricey going over 3HP, the price for a VFD that will go from 1 phase into 3 phase start to get exorbitant. Every situation is different and you need to look at each one on a case by case basis. There is no way to blanket everyone's situation into a generalization. My $0.02

There's an amazing gunsmith (IMO) that used to moderate the Practical Machinist forum, his name is Rod Henrickson, he's up in Alberta. He has a fairly inexpensive Chinese 13x40 lathe, but he can do wonders on it. The old adage, a great craftsman never blames his tools. I wonder how Rod is doing up there now that Trudy is trying to take everyone's firearms away...same plan seems to be backfiring on the left in America...

Rod is a great smith and machinist. I believe that Rod and Bill Leeper are in the very top of Canadian gunsmiths.
Rod and Bill are quick to keep me grounded. Rod will call you out in a second if you are an internet machinist!

 

[butchlambert]

SK
Thanks for sending me that link.
The owner is Donnie that use to post over on the Practialmachinist forum.
That 10EE has the RARE up graded spindle bearings.It is in Very good shape with little wear.
What was Donnie asking for his 10EE ?

Hal

If it is Donnie's it will be a good one.

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

Do you think if I installed a 5 hp VFD, that I could just plug the lathe in and it will run fine (lathe has 3 phase 3 hp motor, 3 phase small oil pump, single phase controls)?

Yes, indeed. The rule of thumb is that hard to start machines, like band saws, lathes, and other stuff that needs to spin up to speed, typically require EDIT: 1.5x the HP to start, so 4.5HP in theory should start a 3HP lathe. Since there is no 4.5HP motors, a 5HP RPC would be well suited. But there are a lot of factors, the power in your shop, how difficult the machine is to start up, etc...motors vary also, but in general, yes a 5HP motor will start a 3HP lathe.

Rod is a great smith and machinist. I believe that Rod and Bill Leeper are in the very top of Canadian gunsmiths.
Rod and Bill are quick to keep me grounded. Rod will call you out in a second if you are an internet machinist!

I'm not sure what happened to Rod over on PM, it's been a while now...but he used to hang out on the Home Gunsmith forum. I was looking for Rod, and renewed my membership, but Rod doesn't use that forum anymore. Someone did steer me to his YT channel, but he doesn't post too much these days, not like when he moderated the Gunsmithing forum on PM.

With all this talk of lathes, I will put myself out on a limb and say that a mill is MUCH more useful to do gunsmith work. Sure, you need a lathe to chamber and cut threads, but it seems to me that most gunsmiths use their lathes for truing actions and threading muzzle devices. Pretty much the rest of it, including drilling, can be done on a mill. Any serious gunsmith will have both.

If it is Donnie's it will be a good one.

I agree, anyone would be lucky to get one of his machines. Years ago I saw a post of his using a Skinner 9xx 4-1/2" chuck, they're one of the best vintage chucks in a small size. Nowadays they're very hard to find, but come up occasionally...unfortunately people asking $200+ for them nowadays... I more often use an 8" chuck, but have 6" and 4" solutions as well.

A good reminder for all. Whatever lathe you get, you will end up spending more money on tooling that you spend on the lathe, or at least you should plan on it. Even if you get tooling with your lathe, it's most often not the tooling you need...Murphy's Law. DAMHIKT

 

[butchlambert]

Yes, indeed. The rule of thumb is that hard to start machines, like band saws, lathes, and other stuff that needs to spin up to speed, typically require 1.5HP to start, so 4.5HP in theory should start the lathe. But there are a lot of factors, the power in your shop, how difficult the machine is to start up, etc...motors vary also, but in general, yes a 5HP motor will start a 3HP lathe.

I'm not sure what happened to Rod over on PM, it's been a while now...but he used to hang out on the Home Gunsmith forum. I was looking for Rod, and renewed my membership, but Rod doesn't use that forum anymore. Someone did steer me to his YT channel, but he doesn't post too much these days, not like when he moderated the Gunsmithing forum on PM.

With all this talk of lathes, I will put myself out on a limb and say that a mill is MUCH more useful to do gunsmith work. Sure, you need a lathe to chamber and cut threads, but it seems to me that most gunsmiths use their lathes for truing actions and threading muzzle devices. Pretty much the rest of it, including drilling, can be done on a mill. Any serious gunsmith will have both.

I agree, anyone would be lucky to get one of his machines. Years ago I saw a post of his using a Skinner 9xx 4-1/2" chuck, they're one of the best vintage chucks in a small size. Nowadays they're very hard to find, but come up occasionally...unfortunately people asking $200+ for them nowadays... I more often use an 8" chuck, but have 6" and 4" solutions as well.

A good reminder for all. Whatever lathe you get, you will end up spending more money on tooling that you spend on the lathe, or at least you should plan on it. Even if you get tooling with your lathe, it's most often not the tooling you need...Murphy's Law. DAMHIKT

Rod couldn't stand the internet machinist and wasn't shy letting them know. He also shook up a few on the Accurate Reloading forum. I stay in touch and put a burr under his saddle from time to time.
I will agree, my mills are my most go to machines.

 

[akajun]

Butch the pot will control all three I’d imagine
Running a surface grinder I just leave it at 60hz

If his lathe is a 3 hp motor and 3hp pump ( I’d double check that one that’s a lot of hp fir a coolant pump) then it’s probably better to run it on a rpc of about 5-7.5 hp
Vfds o er 3 hp used for phase conversion get expensive and over 5hp you have to de rate
Jumper wire stuff, etc better to just use an rpc and if you need pot control instal a 3ph in 3ph out vfd

 

[WSnyder]

Do you think if I installed a 5 hp VFD, that I could just plug the lathe in and it will run fine (lathe has 3 phase 3 hp motor, 3 phase small oil pump, single phase controls)?

Yes, indeed. The rule of thumb is that hard to start machines, like band saws, lathes, and other stuff that needs to spin up to speed, typically require EDIT: 1.5x the HP to start, so 4.5HP in theory should start a 3HP lathe. Since there is no 4.5HP motors, a 5HP RPC would be well suited. But there are a lot of factors, the power in your shop, how difficult the machine is to start up, etc...motors vary also, but in general, yes a 5HP motor will start a 3HP lathe.

The OP @Addley asked about running a VFD to fully run his lathe but you seem to have responded about sizing and running an RPC. To the OP @Addley pretty much all VFD's I've messed with do not allow for switching/disconnecting the load while running. There are drives (VFD's) that have a setup to allow for a safety disconnect that will allow for disconnecting the load for an emergency or lockout purposes without damaging the drive but that is not applicable to what you want to do. In short I do not think you can just plug into a VFD to run the lathe. As said many times an RPC is the easy button.

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

@Addley[/USER] asked about running a VFD to fully run his lathe but you seem to have responded about sizing and running an RPC.

The 2 are actually related in the case of a lathe. You need enough power to start the lathe, and lathes require more power to handle the start surge. We might be talking past each other, not sure.

There are drives (VFD's) that have a setup to allow for a safety disconnect that will allow for disconnecting the load for an emergency or lockout purposes without damaging the drive but that is not applicable to what you want to do. In short I do not think you can just plug into a VFD to run the lathe.

Sure you can. We should be clear that a VFD is quite different than an RPC, which uses capacitors to start, then the 3 leg off the 3 phase motor once it is running. I'm no RPC or VFD guru, just know what works for me and having used a 7-1/2HP RPC to run various machines in my shop, I rarely run 2 at the same time, I more often work alone.

Pretty common in the case of a South Bend lathe to run it off a VFD. And other lathes also, but once you get up to a 5HP lathe, expect to start paying a premium for the VFDs.

IMO, an RPC is much more useful than a VFD, as a VFD is difficult to use on more than one machine. An RPC can handle 3x the power off the 3 phase motor, once it's going.

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

Rod couldn't stand the internet machinist and wasn't shy letting them know. He also shook up a few on the Accurate Reloading forum. I stay in touch and put a burr under his saddle from time to time.
I will agree, my mills are my most go to machines.

Never knew Rod here on Accurate Shooter, just my acquaintance with him on PM and the Home Gunsmith Forum. Yeah, I seem to upset the machinists and shooters, so I get beat up pretty bad for things I do, but I'm not looking for anyone's approval. There are some amazing machinists over on PM, but few gunsmiths.

I would trust Rod to do any gunsmith work I needed, but I would trust you also.

 

[WSnyder]

I also have some doubts that the VFD would like the control transformer on just two legs of the output of the VFD if you tried to run it that way.

And I know exactly what an RPC is all about. I have two in the shop, one commercially produced 10HP and the larger 15HP I built and wired myself. Got some VFD's around too. A buddy runs a quite large American Rotary to run his CNC shop and I've also worked around some Phase Perfect's

 

[itchyTF]

I also have some doubts that the VFD would like the control transformer on just two legs of the output of the VFD if you tried to run it that way.

I read somewhere that VFDs are only intended for the motor, not control stuff.
That would be a real problem if you included variable speed.

 

[WSnyder]

I read somewhere that VFDs are only intended for the motor, not control stuff.

Pretty much that's the way they all have been that I have used. There may be some new latest greatest I don't know about though. The only pure electronic I know of that you can just "plug into" is a Phase Perfect.

 

[Konocti's Wigwam]

I also have some doubts that the VFD would like the control transformer on just two legs of the output of the VFD if you tried to run it that way.

It will work, but the very reason I suggested that each environment is different and I can't control anyone else's environment, so punted. It depends on how the control circuit is setup. My Rivett originally had a transformer for the control motor leg. However, the transformer was removed and a 120v hardwired into it, and the machine changed over to 460v from 220v. I added a transformer back into the machine so only have 3 phase going in now and the controller is deriving from the 3 phase.

And I know exactly what an RPC is all about. I have two in the shop, one commercially produced 10HP and the larger 15HP I built and wired myself. Got some VFD's around too. A buddy runs a quite large American Rotary to run his CNC shop and I've also worked around some Phase Perfect's

I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, You seem a bit smarky about it, I didn't mean any harm is suggesting what I did about VFDs. I am the first to admit I am probably wrong. However, I keep seeing bad information in your posts that differ from my real world experience. CNC needs more than 1.5x, most are more like 2x the amount to start.

I bought a used Phase Perfect because I have used an RPC for about 15 years and tired of listening to the hum...BTW, that reminds me, VFDs aren't perfect either, the motors tend to whine when running on a VFD...more so with certain models for me, I have a Deckel mill that whines.

 

[X Count]

I can't answer about today's, but all that I've seen and run were from the UK. JDH on this forum has one. Actually he has several machine tools. Ask him if it is for sale.

Yeah my understanding was they were UK made. Owned by the 600 company that made Harrison and Colchester etc. Very high quality machine.

I have a Colchester master 2500 which was more common in UK and Australia and is heavier than the Harrison but similar control layout.

I think Alex Wheeler uses a Harrison

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I used to use the mill a lot more than I do now. For the last couple years I have been in front of the lathe all day, everyday.

 

[butchlambert]

Never knew Rod here on Accurate Shooter, just my acquaintance with him on PM and the Home Gunsmith Forum. Yeah, I seem to upset the machinists and shooters, so I get beat up pretty bad for things I do, but I'm not looking for anyone's approval. There are some amazing machinists over on PM, but few gunsmiths.

I would trust Rod to do any gunsmith work I needed, but I would trust you also.

I don't think he was ever on this forum.