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Frustrations of trying to help

There have been times when I politely asked, and someone wanted some help. I showed them things that cut their groups in half or better. They were happy. Observing them from several benches away a couple of months later, they were back to their old habits. I would much rather teach any woman, who is not afraid of guns, and who really wants to learn how to shoot, than just about any man. Typically guys have a real problem following directions, even if they positively know that you can do something a lot better than they can. The worst are fellows who have been shooting for a long time, and say that they want to improve their results. Typically, they really think that they already know how to shoot, and this attitude is a positive obstruction to any improvement. On the other hand, every once in a while, there is the exception, and that is a lot of fun.
 
Like other posted, advice or suggestions is hit & miss. Some will listen and execute and others will continue to go on their merry way. When asked, I offer options and my methods. It's up to the questioner to take it or leave it. Unless it's a safety issue, I prefer to mind my own business.
 
I feel your pain. I have a good personal friend that I talk a lot about guns with. When I try to explain with gunsmithing or long range shooting a different way of doing things he can't see it or understand it, but then if he sees it on YouTube by some of the biggest names out there such as Eric Cortina or someone it's then gospel to him. I then shake my head and think to myself that wow that's what I was saying last week or a couple months ago. So I have made a decision at least with the gunsmithing stuff, fine you want it thatr way after I tried explaining something better here's the keys to the kingdom then. And now you do it
 
I feel your pain. I have a good personal friend that I talk a lot about guns with. When I try to explain with gunsmithing or long range shooting a different way of doing things he can't see it or understand it, but then if he sees it on YouTube by some of the biggest names out there such as Eric Cortina or someone it's then gospel to him. I then shake my head and think to myself that wow that's what I was saying last week or a couple months ago. So I have made a decision at least with the gunsmithing stuff, fine you want it thatr way after I tried explaining something better here's the keys to the kingdom then. And now you do it
It's not a good idea until the right person has it.

That is the coin of the realm in corporate circles. And it's human nature, I guess.
 
My experience has been a bit different. I have found people receptive to trying a different and often better way. The majority like learning the why. Gals who didn't grow up with guns and are relatively new to shooting are mostly like a sponge. Guys who know it all take a bit to overcome what they think they know and quickly become anxious to learn what they didn't know. And yes, occasionally I will meet someone that isn't receptive and that is fine. People are all a bit different, with some being a lot different. There is a way into each of their heads and it's up to the teacher to find the path each will follow the best. Perhaps I've been lucky to have many that I could help along the way.

On the other side, I find many issues with some of those who want to give advice or instruct. The biggest impediment is, it is more important for them to show off their knowledge and skills than it is for someone to learn them. I think that is nature, but often the primary purpose is lost in the process. There is the tendency to talk to much and too fast. It's also a nature that people wish for a shortcut to success and it's nature to offer it, even when we know there are few shortcuts to knowledge and skills. Teachers, instructors, and coaches can help a student progress more expediently than the hard way of trial and error, nonetheless students need time to absorb the knowledge and develop the physical skills. Just some of my observations. Regardless I tip my hat to those that over to help others, and that is nature at work. Although I've been a teacher, instructor, and coach in three different industries, I'm always first a student.
 
I try my best not to teach anyone anything, except by example. I offer my help, if they want it, and invite them to a match. Ask them if they need help, only if you see a problem, otherwise wait until they ask for help.
 
I grew up shooting BB guns and 22 LRs and had never fired a centerfire rifle until I spent six years in the Army. Even then it was only once a year to requalify with the M-16.

My real interest in "precision shooting" began with a very accurate Rem 700 .223 Varmint Special that I bought in 1987. Then began the reloading journey trying to shrink the groups. I thought I was all that because I was lucky to get a good barrel. I bought a big brother 308 Varmint Special and never could get that rifle to shoot well.

Factory rifles led to Rem 40Xs then later to full blown custom builds. In the early 90s came the 6BR and 6PPC in addition to nice varmint rifles, tactical rifles, and AR-15s. I have learned a lot from others, shared a lot, and learned many lessons the hard way.

Early on I was far too eager to help people and offer advice. With more experience I learned to wait until someone asked for my help. That served me well over the years and three of those that I helped remain close friends today. All three far more intelligent than I: one Civil Engr, one MD, and one retired AF Special Ops C-130 pilot. All of them said a version of, "You seem to know what you are doing. Would you mind giving me a hand?" I was happy to help, they listened well, followed advice, and wanted to learn more about precision rifles and reloading. Not having a son to share with, I was more than happy to help and gain new friends as well.

However, one time in the last few years, I broke my own rule about not offering help that turned out to be humorous. An older fellow was trying to sight in his deer rifle at 100 yards with a rolled up blanket. He would shoot, then cuss. Shoot and cuss. I was finished shooting and said, "Sir, you are more than welcome to use my rest and rear bag to sight in."

Frustrated, he bellowed, "I was in the Marine Corps for 33 years! I know how to shoot!!!"

I thought, but did not say, "Well, not very well." Normally, I would have apologized for bothering him and walked away. For some reason I said, "Sir, I was in the Army for 6.25 years but I couldn't shoot worth a shit!"

He instantly changed his attitude and wanted to know where I had served. I told him that the cease fire was called in Vietnam while I was in training. I asked for Augsburg, Germany but was assigned to Thailand and then Okinawa. I reenlisted and served a tour in South Korea and finished with another tour in Okinawa. I served with the old Army Security Agency and intercepted the communications of countries of interest.

He smiled and said, "I commanded all the Marines in Japan!" Turned out he was a retired Major General who had served with Stormin' Norman in the first gulf war then on to the Pentagon. Of course, as he climbed the ranks, I doubt he shot the M-16 or M-4 very much. :)

He then accepted my offer of using the rest and bag. He drives down from NC just to zero before deer and bear hunting. Last two times I saw him, he acknowledged my help and thanked me again.

That one exception was worth the grief but I agree that it is best to wait until someone asks. Even then, if they aren't receptive or want to debate, I just bow out and give them a good leaving alone. Heck, even after 36 years of steady rifle shooting, I am still learning and hope to have a few more years left to enjoy my passion.
 
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I'd have to say my #1 frustration is when advice requestor and advice giver don't match on level of expectations. It happens here too, often turning into a big challenge on the best way to do something. I appreciate this forums dedication to results oriented process improvements and data and I remind myself often that we're all allowed our opinions.

Example: "What's the best load for a 308 AR?". That's such a a loaded question where expectations are all over the place.

So, I too help out friends, but I now know to go to the range with them first. Keep it friendly, out for a fun shoot and assess on my own their capabilities first.
Friend A showed up and out shot me to the point that I felt so out of place, I thought I was a cowboy action shooter at an F-class match. I learned a lot! It was still fun! We traded information, and now we've set a friendly competition.
Friend B showed up and immediately wanted single hole groups from his AR at 300y. Well, factory ammo aside; 2-MOA performance at 300y isn't bad when you're supporting the rifle from the barrel. Hmm, maybe that's why the 55gr FMJ factory wasn't 2.5MOA? You know what Friend B is great to take to the range! Know how hard it is to hit an egg at 300 with 2.5MOA ammo? Well, nothing but smiles and laughs when we do, that's for sure! Insert Lego Batman "first try" here.

I've learned from both friends that we all see this "shooting" sport differently and have our own "plateaus" to improvement; but have fun and BE SAFE is the most important. That of course is left to interpretation of the shooters and leads to yet more discussion points.

-Mac
 
I think we are all at different levels. My attitude is at least they own guns. It could be worse, they could hate guns and vote to ban them all.

Your offer to assist others is a big undertaking, and shouldn't be taken lightly by those you are instructing.
 
Boyd I may be guilty of what you said earlier. With me I think that people have showed me a different way to hold the gun or align the bag or whatever and I tried it and it worked good but 4 range trips later muscle memory took over and I was back to the way I started with before I could develop a new muscle memory. but sometimes my brain will allow me to make a change. it surely wasn't me being disrespectful to the person that was kind enough to try to help me.
 
Most of us are old dogs and so are the folks we shoot next to. It's sometimes tough to learn new methods and apply them whether you're the shooter or the teacher. We're all sponges, some just hold more water than others.
 
Was at my local FFL a few months back and a guy in front of me had purchased quite a bit of ammo and some guns. From the looks of what he purchased, I figured he had it all figured out. As he's being rang up, he asks the cashier if he knows anyone that can mount a scope. It took me by surprise. I figure if you know how to shoot, you should know how to maintain/adjust your gear. I'm all for helping folks out that want to help themselves and learn. I'll go out of my way to help someone like that. However, I have no time for people that don't want to learn in today's world. Everyone has access to the Internet and access to information.
 
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I’m officially an Old Guy. When someone offers me advice on their own volition (which does not happen often), I listen carefully and then decide if their suggestions make sense or not. Always say thanks.

As far as offering advice, I mind my own business unless asked, which again doesn’t happen often. I do speak up however if I see a safety violation, and I mean not just a technical “you didn’t do this right” but something that puts others at risk. Ultimately, we are all range safety officers.

We had an incident last year in which one shooter began firing while another was down range checking targets. The offender was an old guy who was not paying attention to what was going on. Just in his own little bubble.

This week, there was me and two young guys, I found out later they were 17 and 18, on the range. I had gotten up from the bench and walked over to my van. When I turned back around those two guys were halfway down to the targets. When they got back I walked over and introduced myself, shook hands and said “Hey, just some advice, make sure you get an acknowledgment from all the other shooters before you go down range.” They were very friendly and open to the advice. I shared the story with them and told them there’s some old guys here who maybe don’t see and hear well and it never hurts to be sure.

I find the younger shooters are mostly friendly and open to what you have to say. On the other hand…

Not too long ago on the pistol range, I had just arrived and took my pistol out of it’s case, laid it on the bench, action open, mag removed. This old guy who was obviously teaching a small group comes marching down and barks “YA GOT A FLAG FER THAT PISTOL” I said yes and pointed it out laying on the bench. He barks “MAKE SURE YA PUT IT IN WHEN PEOPLE ARE DOWN RANGE” Ok, I says. He then gives a c’mon waive to his group and they go down range. Whatever. Short time later I was looking straight down his muzzle when he picked up his 1911 off the bench, turned 90 degrees pointing it along the firing line, finger in the trigger guard, then bent down to put it in his bag at his feet. I shout, Muzzle! Watch your muzzle! He looks at me, turns around and looks at his group of shooters, then turns back to me with a WTF look on his face. I said you just pointed right at me! He goes “I DID NOT!” I told him what he did and he barks back “I WAS PUTTIN’ IT IN THE CASE!”

I find the old guys are the most lax when it comes to gun handling and also the most resistant to criticism or correction. They’ll take a rifle out of their back seat or trunk, no case, action closed, finger on trigger and carry it from the parking area to the bench holding it at waist level, pointing the muzzle at everyone. “It ain’t loaded!” Seen that more than a few times. You want to get in an argument real fast, tell an old guy he’s not being safe! At least that’s my experience.
 

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