Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook

[Heman]

As an outsider (sling shooter) looking at this here is what I don't understand.
Tuners (which have shown up in last 4-5 years)- Ok
RAD recoil systems (shown up in the last 4-5 years)- Ok
But front rests with rollers (new)- not ok but it doesn't follow the intent of the discipline.
I'm sure the first two don't either but are accepted.

On the F-T/R Side
Adjustable rear buttstocks- not ok
Bipods with joysticks- good

When I started shooting at Ft. Knox in 07 and Atterbury in 08 watched the equipment explosion in FOpen and F-T/R once it started up. Specifically saw TR go from factory rifles/harris bipods and mag length ammo to what almost looks like FOpen to be frank.

I think in both disciplines the cat is out of the bag and the NRA is trying to reign something in that it failed to do originally.

Just like with the carpet rule you need some method to show (statistically) that said piece of equipment gives you an advantage. Perceived advantage doesn't hold water.

USHPSA is allowing the shooters of the member clubs (Byars, Aurura, CIHRPS, Fall Creek, Sycamore) to vote on the direction they want to go in. As of now everything is legal and if the shooters vote to outlaw them, it won't take affect till 2024.

 

[Bill Clifton]

IMO, Open class should be "Open".

I feel like there are too many shooters out there that already have roller style rest. Half of the open guys at my range have rest with rollers (at least last year they did). And almost all Open shooters use a joystick style of rest.

I think this ruling will be off-putting to a lot of shooters, myself included. Mainly due to the cost of the equipment that shooters have already invested in. And now I will have to pay more $ to get within the rules.

And I don't feel like it's much of a difference, if any, bags vs rollers. And a roller system vs a bag system is relatively the same cost to purchase. So the rule is not in place to keep cost down.

Just my 2 cents

Agree and this rule will create more cost, I have a Neo X on order and wondering if the setup will even be legal when it finally shows up. I went through all of this when I was in motorsport competitions, they change rules making boat anchors out of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Just leave things alone. This just turns off newbies like me gathering equipment just getting started.

 

[Bill Clifton]

So the seb neo x with teflon sides is illegal also?

according to this new rule it would appear so which is bs. How is one to grow a sport when they change the rules before you can even get the equipment delivered? It would appear the previous rules were pretty much open as long as the rest didn't return rifle to it's previous position. Now they are REQUIRING sand bags? Does this mean you can't even use a bipod in F Open now? You can't roll up your jacket?

 

[Fuj]

But front rests with rollers (new)- not ok but it doesn't follow the intent of the discipline.

I don't own a rest with rollers, and have no preference. If the bud
next to me has one and kicks my ass, it sure was'nt the rollers.

I really have no skin in this NRA rule book game but let me say this.....
What was the intent of allowing a wider, flatter fore end when this
game started. There had to be a beginning where someone showed
up with this new stock and caused a serious commotion. I guess
after some use of colorfull words, It was accepted, but with a width
rule.....On., and on. and Yadda Yadda. My personal view would be to
allow them, and evolve. Remember it all started with throwing rocks.

 

[USMCDOC]

so i took the rollers off mine.. then put some felt on it.. tried that out.. what i noticed.. was compression of the felt.. today i put that bag top on.. will see how that works out

 

[ronsatspokane]

As an outsider (sling shooter) looking at this here is what I don't understand.
Tuners (which have shown up in last 4-5 years)- Ok
RAD recoil systems (shown up in the last 4-5 years)- Ok
But front rests with rollers (new)- not ok but it doesn't follow the intent of the discipline.
I'm sure the first two don't either but are accepted.

On the F-T/R Side
Adjustable rear buttstocks- not ok
Bipods with joysticks- good

When I started shooting at Ft. Knox in 07 and Atterbury in 08 watched the equipment explosion in FOpen and F-T/R once it started up. Specifically saw TR go from factory rifles/harris bipods and mag length ammo to what almost looks like FOpen to be frank.

I think in both disciplines the cat is out of the bag and the NRA is trying to reign something in that it failed to do originally.

Just like with the carpet rule you need some method to show (statistically) that said piece of equipment gives you an advantage. Perceived advantage doesn't hold water.

USHPSA is allowing the shooters of the member clubs (Byars, Aurura, CIHRPS, Fall Creek, Sycamore) to vote on the direction they want to go in. As of now everything is legal and if the shooters vote to outlaw them, it won't take affect till 2024.

Especially when considering that a RAD can be viewed as a mechanism which assists in returning a rifle to battery.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Especially when considering that a RAD can be viewed as a mechanism which assists in returning a rifle to battery.

I have no opinion except to say that a simple "no one piece rest" rule probably addresses this too. If not, the " no return to battery existing rule does, IMHO. Albeit...it could be more simply stated than it is, and cover the same ground while leaving less room for interpretation...IMHO.

Simple clarity and room to allow others' existing equipment to fit within your rules, just makes a whole lotta sense to me....especially when any perceived advantage of something like rollers...is more perceived than it is real. That part is based on experience. Actually, everything I just said is based on experience. Not opinion. But it just depends on where those that make the rules run into or out of common sense.

Fewer and simpler rules undoubtedly cause less trouble...IME. There have to be limits but not stupid stuff like how thick is the sand, etc. Just make it easier for everyone to compete with existing equipment without burensome and hard to enforce rules...and you'll be headed in the right direction. Really doesn't matter if it's guns cars or RC airplanes. Still the same, IMO.

 

[Rset]

so i took the rollers off mine.. then put some felt on it.. tried that out.. what i noticed.. was compression of the felt.. today i put that bag top on.. will see how that works out

I did the same and noticed no difference. I have to question though, how much compression can be experienced with felt that is only 1/16" when new?

 

[Steve Blair]

Electronic targets are authorized for National and Regional matches and are known for not picking up shots and have other range glitches, but you can’t have a rest with rollers which has no effect of your score. Technology has changed who can remember Agent Smart #86 calling Agent 99 from his watch? Now people make calls from their watch everyday who would have THUNK THAT!

I would have called Barbara Feldon with whatever I had available.

 

[USMCDOC]

I did the same and noticed no difference. I have to question though, how much compression can be experienced with felt that is only 1/16" when new?

it ain't much... but i could see it.. but then it rebounded when i took the rifle out.. going to test it again tomorrow

 

[Walt Krafft]

Newbe question, is the bump stop on front rests legal? Or does that assist in returning the rifle.

 

[Warren Dean]

Especially when considering that a RAD can be viewed as a mechanism which assists in returning a rifle to battery.

No it is not. It is to keep the rifle from hitting you so hard.

 

[Warren Dean]

Newbe question, is the bump stop on front rests legal? Or does that assist in returning the rifle.

I think that's the 600 pound gorilla in the room nobody wants to talk about.....

 

[dcali]

The return to battery rule is so vague that it's useless. They should just take it out.

 

[dcali]

Newbe question, is the bump stop on front rests legal? Or does that assist in returning the rifle.

Most people interpret them as legal. Personally, I think they're not.

 

[Fuj]

Newbe question, is the bump stop on front rests legal? Or does that assist in returning the rifle.

Just in case, I put one on the rifle itself. I should have made
it square so no one would think it's a roller.....LOL Either way,
it's different, and frankly works quite well.....

 

[sfinn1]

Most people interpret them as legal. Personally, I think they're not.

This is exactly what I've said about contacting the rules committee. All one should have to be able to do is contact the committee and ask the simple question, "are stops legal on front rest". They should reply with a yes or no, and the reason in referring to the rules.

 

[ronsatspokane]

No it is not. It is to keep the rifle from hitting you so hard.

Wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more. And yet rollers guide and assist in bringing a rifle back into battery. Fancy that. Having a rodzilla top it is personal with me. I like it and will continue to use it regardless of what the NRA says. If match directors refuse to turn in my scores to the NRA, so be it. I'll keep shooting and let my NRA membership lapse. Perhaps F Class will change and no longer let people without NRA membership shoot. If that happens, time to find another venue.

The bottom line is that people I shoot with can shoot off a 2x4 and beat 99 percent of F Class shooters with rollers. It's not like the rollers are going to provide anyone with any kind of advantage. RAD's on the other hand offer significant advantages both in terms of recoil mitigation and return to battery. If you don't have them on your rifle in F Open then the probability of being at the top of the leader board is a round number.

 

[dcali]

This is exactly what I've said about contacting the rules committee. All one should have to be able to do is contact the committee and ask the simple question, "are stops legal on front rest". They should reply with a yes or no, and the reason in referring to the rules.

They should publish a regular FAQ document on the internet to address these interpretation issues in exactly that way. They don't need to lawyer it in the FAQ - just use common language. They're making it harder than it is.

Q: Are front end stops legal on rests?
A: Yes.

Q: Are rollers allowed on rests?
A: No. Rollers are not permitted regardless of whether or not they are free to rotate.

Q: Do adjustment mechanisms on a rest constitute a "mechanical device"?
A: No. Adjustable rests are permitted. Mechanisms that guide the rifle are not.

Q: Are joystick-style adjustments legal on rests?
A: Yes.

There, I did the work for them. If you still get issues cropping up with FAQs, then it's time to re-evaluate the way the rules are written. But in the mean time, just put out a PDF. It takes a couple minutes. Update it every time an issue crops up.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more. And yet rollers guide and assist in bringing a rifle back into battery. Fancy that. Having a rodzilla top it is personal with me. I like it and will continue to use it regardless of what the NRA says. If match directors refuse to turn in my scores to the NRA, so be it. I'll keep shooting and let my NRA membership lapse. Perhaps F Class will change and no longer let people without NRA membership shoot. If that happens, time to find another venue.

The bottom line is that people I shoot with can shoot off a 2x4 and beat 99 percent of F Class shooters with rollers. It's not like the rollers are going to provide anyone with any kind of advantage. RAD's on the other hand offer significant advantages both in terms of recoil mitigation and return to battery. If you don't have them on your rifle in F Open then the probability of being at the top of the leader board is a round number.

OK, I'm feeling guilty so I'll expand with some detail.

When a RAD system compresses under the force of a projectile being forced out the pointy end of a barrel, Newtons third law is invoked: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

A RAD does not provide a bridge around this law. What it does is it stores that energy from the recoil in a mechanism such as a spring (and regardless of the technology, for all intents and purposes a RAD is a spring). That energy is released later. That later release takes us to Newtons second law, the forces are now out of balance when the spring is compressed. Those forces will become balanced as the spring decompresses in the direction of returning the rifle to battery.

How rapidly it does this and with what kind of force depends on a number variables such as the degree of force used to compress the spring, the attributes of the spring such as its stiffness and auxiliary mechanisms designed to slow the decompression such as shock absorber valving. That system will however always rebalance according to Newtons second law and when it does, we all know what direction it is happening in and what is being moved to accomplish the rebalance.

That a RAD is a mechanism that returns a rifle to battery is not a matter of opinion. It is settled science.

Some links for those who are interested:

Newton's Third Law of Motion

Newton's third law of motion describes the nature of a force as the result of a mutual and simultaneous interaction between an object and a second object in its surroundings. This interaction results in a simultaneously exerted push or pull upon both objects involved in the interaction.

www.physicsclassroom.com

Newton's Second Law of Motion

Newton's second law describes the affect of net force and mass upon the acceleration of an object. Often expressed as the equation a = Fnet/m (or rearranged to Fnet=m*a), the equation is probably the most important equation in all of Mechanics. It is used to predict how an object will...

www.physicsclassroom.com

Spring potential energy and Hooke's law review (article) | Khan Academy

Learn for free about math, art, computer programming, economics, physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, finance, history, and more. Khan Academy is a nonprofit with the mission of providing a free, world-class education for anyone, anywhere.

www.khanacademy.org

But lets get those rollers off the sides of those rests. And if the NRA wants my rollers, they'd better be looking at the science behind their decision and address the most egregious violation of their own policy at the same time.

You're welcome.

P.S. the reason I'm pointing this out is that some individuals obviously viewed rollers as an unfair advantage. They are probably using RAD systems. If we want F Open to become F Closed then let's make it happen. By the time we are done we will all be shooting offhand without the aid of a sling just as the High Power folks do at the 200 yard line.