Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook

[lawman29]

I shoot a game where the gun and setup must be capable of teen aggs to be truly competitive. With that criteria, I don't believe that rollers or sandbag rules are the difference unless something about the setup is problematic. Does anybody believe this new rule is gonna give/take a competitive edge to or from someone? I've tested all 3 raptor tops and I think not, fwiw. So, what's the point of another rule against something that doesn't give any significant edge? I can see it if it actually made a person's setup significantly better than the field but it does not...ime. Yes, we need some rules in any game but I think one question should be asked by all whenever a new rule is proposed. That being, does it serve a real and practical purpose or is it just another restrictive move than makes it more expensive and difficult to participate. There are consequences to every rule. They are not harmless.

If we are being honest, completely transparent to the core, we all know in F-Class that we are benchrest on the ground.

Are you recommending that we adopt the IBS sandbag rules??
Do you interpret them as less restrictive than F CLass?
Do you interpret them as more restrictive than F Class?
Would you recommend that IBS should change their front rest sand bag rules to allow rollers, Teflon/plastic, felt, etc??

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Are you recommending that we adopt the IBS sandbag rules??
Do you interpret them as less restrictive than F CLass?
Do you interpret them as more restrictive than F Class?
Would you recommend that IBS should change their front rest sand bag rules to allow rollers, Teflon/plastic, felt, etc??

I like simple. As I said previously, I like the idea of simply saying "no one piece rests allowed" in all but unlimited classes, everywhere. Let people shoot what they have and I can only see that as a positive, if all orgs followed the same rule. I don't see any game changers in terms of rollers or sand bag stipulations....or felt vs sand, etc.

 

[Lbart]

I like simple. As I said previously, I like the idea of simply saying "no one piece rests allowed" in all but unlimited classes, everywhere. Let people shoot what they have and I can only see that as a positive, if all orgs followed the same rule. I don't see any game changers in terms of rollers or sand bag stipulations....or felt vs sand, etc.

I must say once again that USA F-Class rules should comply with the ICFRA FC rules https://icfra.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/FC_Rules_2018_final.pdf i.e.

F2.4. The F/O rifle may be supported by a front rest or bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The area of contact between the front bag and the rifle fore-end will not exceed 76mm x 76mm. The F/O front rest may be employed for either the rifle’s fore-end or for the shooter’s forward hand. If attached, clamped or held onto the rifle in any way, a front rest must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. The front rest may have up to three “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation to the firing point.

F2.8. The contents of front and rear bags will be a dry, finely (< 5 mm) divided substance such as, but not limited to sand, gravel, or grain, packed loosely enough so that the bag must be visibly deformable on sides and top by pressure of the range officer’s fingers.

 

[sapper299]

JMO but that was a tagline included in the rules because early Fclass shooters had been High Power shooters, knew how challenging that really was, and between it and benchrest, wanted to identify much more closely with High Power. If we are being honest, completely transparent to the core, we all know in F-Class that we are benchrest on the ground. We don’t hold up the gun whatsoever, let alone steadily. Most of us today never shot actual sling High Power. Guys that have never tried it, really can’t opine as to how close it is to F-Class. Lay down prone and hold that rifle out there watching the 4x scope bounce all over the place, while you get hot, take the scope off and see what it looks like. Guys that started F-Class but mainly shot high power, I understand sentimentality, but this isn’t a form high power. Heck, high power also involves standing on your two hind legs shooting, kneeling and sitting.

This is benchrest for ranges that can’t have benches. It doesn’t sound so physically involved cast that way, but that’s what it is, flattering or not. It’s incredibly challenging and competitive “mentally” like benchrest, and rewards the eye for subtleties and detail and preparation, but we are being clingers when wanting to attach to high power.

I can see your point, maybe us original F Class guys prefer to stay in that lane, but, that's how the rules are/were written and that is/was the intent of F Class. It was not bench rest guys who decided to change the way they shot that created the sport, it was the High-power guys who could no longer compete for whatever reason. From my standpoint (and its just a difference of opinion, not attacking yours), you don't change the rules of NASCAR to allow formula 1 cars because the new drivers never drove NASCAR.

I am not against change if it helps the sport, but it has to be change we all agree on. I guess from a rule's standpoint, as Keith stated, there needs to be some clarification of several rules and after that, consistent enforcement by match directors across the board. Inconsistent enforcement or widely different interpretations are not good for anyone. I have seen a huge blow up on the range when some shooters protested over guys shooting free recoil. Their argument was the rule clearly states "from the shoulder". Their interpretation being, just because it hits your shoulder after you pull the trigger does not mean you are shooting the rifle from the shoulder. The opposing interpretation was, as long as it was close to the shoulder, the match director was allowing it (I think more to avoid confrontation than a different understanding of the rule- he failed miserably). But, either way, it stopped the match and kind of ruined the event. Thats what we need to avoid with rule changes that are not clearly defined and agreed on by a known group that truly represent the sport.

 

[davidjoe]

Here’s the problem as I see it, with invoking the intent of F-Class, as being a modification of High Power.

High Power doesn’t permit any kind of artificial, mechanical front or rear rest supporting the rifle, forget both at the same time. Therefore, it makes no difference to High Power, what such a rest is “topped” with, they would all be equally illegal.

Some modifications to a “discipline” are so extreme that the discipline is now unrecognizable. Let 100 average sportsmen with a gun collection, look at F-Open equipment, and at Benchrest, and high power. Ask them to segregate out the one that is the most different. We all know how this would go. The fiction we are HP is comforting, and softens a transition if you could once do either, but now can only do one, but, it’s a fiction.

We are benignly adhering to a precept that doesn’t withstand much logical rigor, - that “High Power” somehow guides the minutia of devices, when those devices in any form or fashion are wholly and completely forbidden in high power. High Power can never be the reason that sand is ok, but rollers are not.

This could be likened to starting a sentence with, “in the name of Mother Mary and all that is good and holy”… and then saying whatever it is you planned to say.

I think we should revere High Power, but be sincere enough to know and acknowledge that our 22 pound, 80x scoped, fully supported rifles, front and rear on $2,000.00 of rests that can precisely steer the rifle, without even touching the rifle, have nothing to do with high power other than we shoot at scoring rings.

 

[davidjoe]

I must say once again that USA F-Class rules should comply with the ICFRA FC rules https://icfra.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/FC_Rules_2018_final.pdf i.e.

F2.4. The F/O rifle may be supported by a front rest or bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The area of contact between the front bag and the rifle fore-end will not exceed 76mm x 76mm. The F/O front rest may be employed for either the rifle’s fore-end or for the shooter’s forward hand. If attached, clamped or held onto the rifle in any way, a front rest must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. The front rest may have up to three “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation to the firing point.

F2.8. The contents of front and rear bags will be a dry, finely (< 5 mm) divided substance such as, but not limited to sand, gravel, or grain, packed loosely enough so that the bag must be visibly deformable on sides and top by pressure of the range officer’s fingers.

Aside from many shooters never going to worlds, would we be looking to mirror or exceed those rules, though. Our rules became more restrictive about tops this month. Rollers are not allowed.

F-Open Front Rest Bags - The fore-end of the rifle must rest upon and/or be guided by the front bag(s) described elsewhere in this section. The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.

Here, I understand that rollers have been permitted, until specifically not permitted.

I don’t know what the latest international rule specifically may say, beyond above, but might we end up in a situation where there is no rule against side rollers at worlds, per se, but there is in the US. Then what happens.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Aside from many shooters never going to worlds, would we be looking to mirror or exceed those rules, though. Our rules became more restrictive about tops this month. Rollers are not allowed.

F-Open Front Rest Bags - The fore-end of the rifle must rest upon and/or be guided by the front bag(s) described elsewhere in this section. The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.

Here, I understand that rollers have been permitted, until specifically not permitted.

I don’t know what the latest international rule specifically may say, beyond above, but might we end up in a situation where there is no rule against side rollers at worlds, per se, but there is in the US. Then what happens.

As far as I know, rollers have never been officially "permitted", at least not in writing. If I am wrong about that, I'd like to see a written rule ever specifically declaring their use to be legal. The use of rollers may have been overlooked, but I don't believe they have ever actually been declared legal in the written rules. So in my opinion, rollers have never been legal. Others may have a different opinion, as the rules were written in such a way that different interpretations were readily possible, and the fact that the use of rollers has been overlooked for some time. That seems to me to be how we ended up where we are.

 

[lawman29]

The problem with that notion, at least as far as it applies to HP Rifle - and by extension, F-class - is rule 3.18.

Post #117 addressed the idea that if it doesn't say it's illegal its okay need to read the rule quoted above:

3.18 General—All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment or apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You can't outlaw everything because they aren't specifically mentioned in the rules. I just flat out disagree with that notion. How about painting or clear coating of stocks? I mean really! It doesn't say either way, right. So is it legal or not. One can certainly make a stock as straight as an arrow, benefitting tracking, right? That's just one example of potentially thousands, and that's what's wrong about that notion. Ya'll want lawyers to define the "intent" of the rules? Come on! Simple rules yield simple solutions and less of this.

 

[diego-ted]

did you read this whole thread?

I did along with the 11 pages since! I had planned to travel 22 hours, 1500 miles at God knows what cost to shoot the TSRA-LR SO, I want to make sure I understand completely what I must abide by. So according to the Rodzilla link provided, the 5 Axes top movement is legal, the piviting sandbags the forend rests on is legal and Since I removed the crooked rollers and replaced with felt pads I am 100% NRA Front rest legal, correct! Thx

NRA Ruling | Rodzilla

The new 2024 NRA rules on felt lined rests Recently the NRA appointed F-Class rules committee has ruled that our felt lined top blocks are now illegal for F ...

therodzilla.com

 

[davidjoe]

The difficulty with saying that any rest top that touches the fore end, and was not a sandbag was always illegal, is that it tends to detract from the shooters, and what they have done well, for a number of years, basically saying they broke the rules.

I don’t think the NRA is trying to say that. Another problem, two really, with saying the rules didn’t actually change, is that it suggests that new words, for example changing may to must, on sandbag usage, don’t have meaning, and it suggests also that none of us at any level, referees too, really grasp the rules, as these rests have been used for years, and really, by only very, very serious, observed shooters. You don’t just pick one up at Academy. We haven’t heard of a single challenge.

Also, I imagine such rests are used abroad. We all share ideas. I don’t presume that worlds rules has the equivalent of our 3.18. Does that mean dryer sheets, mirage shields and slick tape of rests and stocks DQ us? Are we going to bring about a change with the other national members for the worlds match, that trickles down to all of their own matches?

Ideally the NRA could say all confusion is on it, read these presently, and carry on, but as long as the NRA doesn’t officially say that nothing has actually changed by reason of the changes, and just remains silent on the new rules, it avoids all that mess, and I think it should.

 

[USMCDOC]

I did along with the 11 pages since! I had planned to travel 22 hours, 1500 miles at God knows what cost to shoot the TSRA SO, I want to make sure I understand completely what I must abide by. So according to the Rodzilla link provided, the 5 Axes top movement is legal, the piviting sandbags the forend rests on is legal and Since I removed the crooked rollers and replaced with felt pads I am 100% NRA Front rest legal, correct! Thx

NRA Ruling | Rodzilla

The new 2024 NRA rules on felt lined rests Recently the NRA appointed F-Class rules committee has ruled that our felt lined top blocks are now illegal for F ...

therodzilla.com

Yes.. i just spoke to Rod this morning.. according to him and the conversations hes had with a person of position.. your set up is good to go.. the only issue is, the rollers.. personally, i don't see an issue.. but someone did and wanted to grind an axe over it.. nuff said in my view

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes.. i just spoke to Rod this morning.. according to him and the conversations hes had with a person of position.. your set up is good to go.. the only issue is, the rollers.. personally, i don't see an issue.. but someone did and wanted to grind an axe over it.. nuff said in my view

Unfortunately, that's why I'm even involved is that this just looks like just that...an axe to grind by someone. That and that I did have in mind, shooting some matches. What do I use and why did I buy a top that had been used and never contested for a number of years? Yes, I've got some skin in this. Granted, not nearly as much as Rod or others that currently shoot off of his stuff in f class. Doesn't matter one bit. Seems to me that the only people that know the "intent" of any rule, had to be involved in making it....and they aren't posting crap, but should be, first.
I get the stuff about international compliance but that doesn't fly well either, to me. They have the same flaw. They should have simple, easy to follow rules that don't need interpretation. Same goes for any and all orgs, here or anywhere. The fact that they could all solve this with a very simple "no one piece rests" rule, rather than this..is just a little bit nutz to me. Same for all, so I'm pissing them all off equally, without prejudice. We don't shoot the same guns we did 100 years ago so "it's always been that way" doesn't carry much weight with me. All that means is there's been ample time to fix it before now. Reminds me of the bills passed in congress that had to be passed before they can be read.

 

[USMCDOC]

Unfortunately, that's why I'm even involved is that this just looks like just that...an axe to grind by someone. That and that I did have in mind, shooting some matches. What do I use and why did I buy a top that had been used and never contested for a number of years? Yes, I've got some skin in this. Granted, not nearly as much as Rod or others that currently shoot off of his stuff in f class. Doesn't matter one bit. Seems to me that the only people that know the "intent" of any rule, had to be involved in making it....and they aren't posting crap, but should be, first.
I get the stuff about international compliance but that doesn't fly well either, to me. They have the same flaw. They should have simple, easy to follow rules that don't need interpretation. Same goes for any and all orgs, here or anywhere. The fact that they could all solve this with a very simple "no one piece rests" rule, rather than this..is just a little bit nutz to me. Same for all, so I'm pissing them all off equally, without prejudice. We don't shoot the same guns we did 100 years ago so "it's always been that way" doesn't carry much weight with me. All that means is there's been ample time to fix it before now. Reminds me of the bills passed in congress that had to be passed before they can be read.

funny you mention "one pc rests".. in europe.. from my understanding, they are not allowed in smallbore benchrest, they have to use a two pc set up.

 

[USMCDOC]

As far as I know, rollers have never been officially "permitted", at least not in writing. If I am wrong about that, I'd like to see a written rule ever specifically declaring their use to be legal. The use of rollers may have been overlooked, but I don't believe they have ever actually been declared legal in the written rules. So in my opinion, rollers have never been legal. Others may have a different opinion, as the rules were written in such a way that different interpretations were readily possible, and the fact that the use of rollers has been overlooked for some time. That seems to me to be how we ended up where we are.

silence is the same as permissiveness

 

[Jennb]

Have we done this one yet?

ETA - 3.4.c
So it applies to both FO and FTR

Apparently someone has!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

All,

My letter didn't get any response whatsoever, so I forwarded it to Aaron Farmer to see if he can help us get an official interpretation.

 

[Ringostar]

Post #117 addressed the idea that if it doesn't say it's illegal its okay need to read the rule quoted above:

3.18 General—All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment or apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official.

i was telling about the rule book in racing, not shooting. My point was that the rules weren’t left vague, like this is. The entire rule book here needs to be clearly written. Just like there’s no clarity to this spirt thing. It mentions apparel, does that mean that someone can bitch about the color of your underwear? I’m just trying to say, what exactly does spirt mean? To myself, being honest and helpful to fellow competitors is more important then whining about someone else’s equipment.

 

[makurtz]

My Rodzilla no-roller compliance mod: Drilled/tap a hole in bottom of blocks under each roller, locked rollers in place with 10-24 set screws. Taped felt strips to the rollers. Shimmed the sand bag blocks out to off-set the the felt thickness. Glides smooth and easy. Tracks great.

 

[Ned Ludd]

silence is the same as permissiveness

Uh no, it isn't.