Boretech eliminator?

[jelenko]

Ahhhhhhhhh...another cleaning thread.

Removing hard carbon, like the baked-in volcanic glass kind of carbon, requires mechanical action, period. There is no single safe cleaning agent or solvent that can clean everything without some kind of mechanical action such as a bronze brush and/or occasional treatment with abrasive cleaners. Anyone tells you different, you probably don't want to be listening to them.

The main reason for using a carbon cleaner such as C4 first is to remove most of the carbon deposits so that the subsequent copper-remover can work with maximum efficiency. If there is a layer of copper underneath the carbon deposits, the copper cleaner may not be working optimally until sufficient patches have been put through the bore to get most of the carbon out. Boretech Eliminator is formulated to remove both carbon and copper, whereas C4 is primarily a carbon remover. I use C4 carbon remover first, followed by Cu+2 copper remover, combined with bronze brush treatment at each step. This approach works pretty well for me, but that is solely my opinion.

A significant amount of loose carbon fouling can actually be removed by simply running some patches wetted with nothing more than ordinary tap water, or some benign organic solvent such as acetone or methanol. If you don't believe that, try it. Is tap water or acetone/methanol as good as C4? I don't think so, or I wouldn't spend the money for C4. Nonetheless, it's not all that difficult to remove a significant amount of loose carbon fouling. Hard carbon is a different story as I mentioned above. I mention this because a long time ago, I used to use only the Cu+2 copper remover for both carbon and copper. That approach in combination with bronze brush treatment worked, but I think using the C4 first does a little better job of getting most of the carbon out. It certainly seems to come out a little easier and more completely using C4 followed by Cu+2.

The bottom line is that there are numerous commercial barrel-cleaning agents available. Everyone has their favorites. Most of them will work, but perhaps with varying degrees of efficacy. IMO, the main difference between them is not whether they will work at all, but one of the effort involved. In other words, how many patches does a particular cleaning agent require and how much additional mechanical effort does it take to really get the bore clean? So the specific brand of cleaning agent(s) someone chooses and the order in which they choose to use them is really a personal choice, nothing more. Most will work if sufficient effort and some kind of mechanical action are applied.

And, there is somewhat hard carbon. In my experience good solvents like C4 will remove them while others struggle or not at all.

This brings up a question: No matter how good the chemical solvent is, will brushing with a bronze brush remove more carbon? I think it will. Next time I clean a barrel I'm going to experiment and assess the difference by observing the bore after cleaning as well as possible with just patches and solvent; then looking again after brushing.

 

[jlorenzo]

Ahhhhhhhhh...another cleaning thread.

Removing hard carbon, like the baked-in volcanic glass kind of carbon, requires mechanical action, period. There is no single safe cleaning agent or solvent that can clean everything without some kind of mechanical action such as a bronze brush and/or occasional treatment with abrasive cleaners. Anyone tells you different, you probably don't want to be listening to them.

The main reason for using a carbon cleaner such as C4 first is to remove most of the carbon deposits so that the subsequent copper-remover can work with maximum efficiency. If there is a layer of copper underneath the carbon deposits, the copper cleaner may not be working optimally until sufficient patches have been put through the bore to get most of the carbon out. Boretech Eliminator is formulated to remove both carbon and copper, whereas C4 is primarily a carbon remover. I use C4 carbon remover first, followed by Cu+2 copper remover, combined with bronze brush treatment at each step. This approach works pretty well for me, but that is solely my opinion.

A significant amount of loose carbon fouling can actually be removed by simply running some patches wetted with nothing more than ordinary tap water, or some benign organic solvent such as acetone or methanol. If you don't believe that, try it. Is tap water or acetone/methanol as good as C4? I don't think so, or I wouldn't spend the money for C4. Nonetheless, it's not all that difficult to remove a significant amount of loose carbon fouling. Hard carbon is a different story as I mentioned above. I mention this because a long time ago, I used to use only the Cu+2 copper remover for both carbon and copper. That approach in combination with bronze brush treatment worked, but I think using the C4 first does a little better job of getting most of the carbon out. It certainly seems to come out a little easier and more completely using C4 followed by Cu+2.

The bottom line is that there are numerous commercial barrel-cleaning agents available. Everyone has their favorites. Most of them will work, but perhaps with varying degrees of efficacy. IMO, the main difference between them is not whether they will work at all, but one of the effort involved. In other words, how many patches does a particular cleaning agent require and how much additional mechanical effort does it take to really get the bore clean? So the specific brand of cleaning agent(s) someone chooses and the order in which they choose to use them is really a personal choice, nothing more. Most will work if sufficient effort and some kind of mechanical action are applied.

Best way to get a neglected carbon ring out? Will a jag the diameter of the bore be wide enough to clean the area where the carbon ring builds up? Or a brush?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Best way to get a neglected carbon ring out? Will a jag the diameter of the bore be wide enough to clean the area where the carbon ring builds up? Or a brush?

Unfortunately, the only real answer to this is "whatever it takes to get it out", as determined using a borescope. Soaking O/N with C4 followed by several strokes with a bronze brush might be worth a try. Alternatively, I might consider trying a couple wet patches of "Free All" penetrating oil, followed by 3-5 strokes with a bronze brush. It may be necessary to repeat the Free All treatment several times to get the full effect. Both of these approaches are relatively benign.

If the milder [non-abrasive] treatments do not work, you will probably have to consider using some kind of abrasive such as KG2 (or similar), together with a Parker Hale-type jag. You can do a search for if you aren't familiar with that type of jag or how to use it. I'm sure you can find plenty of info on what it does, but the bottom line is that a Parker Hale jag has greater surface area than a typical spear point jag/patch setup, and it is designed to be stroked back and forth in the bore as much as needed to get the job done. The milder approaches would be my first choice, but using a Parker Hale jag setup with a relatively fine abrasive cleaner such as KG2 can remove hard carbon deposits in a way that routine cleaning with a bronze brush may not.

 

[jlorenzo]

Unfortunately, the only real answer to this is "whatever it takes to get it out", as determined using a borescope. Soaking O/N with C4 followed by several strokes with a bronze brush might be worth a try. Alternatively, I might consider trying a couple wet patches of "Free All" penetrating oil, followed by 3-5 strokes with a bronze brush. It may be necessary to repeat the Free All treatment several times to get the full effect. Both of these approaches are relatively benign.

If the milder [non-abrasive] treatments do not work, you will probably have to consider using some kind of abrasive such as KG2 (or similar), together with a Parker Hale-type jag. You can do a search for if you aren't familiar with that type of jag or how to use it. I'm sure you can find plenty of info on what it does, but the bottom line is that a Parker Hale jag has greater surface area than a typical spear point jag/patch setup, and it is designed to be stroked back and forth in the bore as much as needed to get the job done. The milder approaches would be my first choice, but using a Parker Hale jag setup with a relatively fine abrasive cleaner such as KG2 can remove hard carbon deposits in a way that routine cleaning with a bronze brush may not.

I have a parker hale jag, I have yet to use it because I can't seem to figure out which patch to use, a 22 cal or something larger and how exactly to wrap the jag (for a .223). I also have Free all. Tested it out on an AR and it seem to work very well. I have been trying Wipe Out recently, if you let it soak over night it seems to work very well once you get used to how much the foam expands its not too bad mess wise. I'll be honest, I'm a nervous nancy when it comes to bronze brushes even though I probably shouldn't be. I have them and use them sparingly. They do work faster than plastic brushes.
I still need to borescope to see how my last soak of Wipe Out did on the barrels in question.
I have also recently tried JB bore paste on a well used Howa factory barrel that I am going to replace. It worked very well. I am still experimenting with it, I think on a regular jag it may work on the carbon ring it you can feel the neck/throat area accurately.
Bore scope tells all. Working in cramped quarters doing all this doesn't help either, I need to reconfigure my gun area.

 

[rebs]

Do you guys use the same size Parker Hale jag for both 22 and 223?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Do you guys use the same size Parker Hale jag for both 22 and 223?

If youre asking about rimfire and 223 then no. I doubt youll find a parker hale and a patch that small for rimfire.

 

[Badhabit]

You don't need a parker hale jag. Just use a brush with your favorite abrasive it works just as good. If you think you need a patch just wrapping one around a old brush will accomplish the same thing as a special jag. This is something I had to prove to myself and the best thing I ever learned from a borescope and that is how to clean a barrel consistently and when I go to a match I now how my barrels are going to preform. I know how many shots to settle down and how many shots before things open up. That way I can stay on top of it and try and replicate it group after group. I never have to worry about cleaning my barrels and how is the carbon ring forming. I no longer have any questions in my mind about barrel cleaning at a match it's a factor I removed from the equation. This works for me and may not for everyone else so take it for what it is.

 

[Rset]

Show me a chemical that takes the hard carbon out after 150 rounds or so with no abrasive, or brush. I like witches brew or something similar. Eliminator will almost finish the job. But if I’m going to clean it I’m gonna actually complete the process. So I fast forward to what I’m gonna need anyway. Skip the foreplay. Go to the part of the movie where you are greasing the lugs and putting it in the safe. I’m going to get some thoro-clean next, I’ve heard good things.

What are you doing, 5 rounds and cleaning?

A bronze brush I use. A bore scope, well I have one, but rarely ever use it. I only care about what target tells me, so I probably save a bunch of time cleaning by not looking really close.
When accuracy does fall off and the carbon ring sets up, your only choice is an abrasive. I do this maybe once in the life of a barrel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Show me a chemical that takes the hard carbon out after 150 rounds or so with no abrasive, or brush. I like witches brew or something similar. Eliminator will almost finish the job. But if I’m going to clean it I’m gonna actually complete the process. So I fast forward to what I’m gonna need anyway. Skip the foreplay. Go to the part of the movie where you are greasing the lugs and putting it in the safe. I’m going to get some thoro-clean next, I’ve heard good things.

What are you doing, 5 rounds and cleaning?

Be careful with that Thoro-clean is all I can say. It works but the abrasive stuff made a bbl so shiny and clean it became the worst copper fouled bbl I've ever seen. Bar none! A bbl can be too smooth and promote coppering. And I'm sure that no one on here would take that to extremes!..Lol!

 

[J.d. Popkes]

A bronze brush I use. A bore scope, well I have one, but rarely ever use it. I only care about what target tells me, so I probably save a bunch of time cleaning by not looking really close.
When accuracy does fall off and the carbon ring sets up, your only choice is an abrasive. I do this maybe once in the life of a barrel.

If you’re ever in the neighborhood I’ll give you a couple bottles of eliminator. Or maybe I should smash my borescope. Either way, come on by.