22lr Action discussion

[PNW Skipper]

Let me give some food for thought. Not trying to change minds or opinions but just open up some discussion.

A barrel has no moving parts. A bullet travels through it in the same direction every time. The bore is either good or bad. But whatever it is, it is always the same from shot-to-shot barring a round being stuck or some other object. It does the same thing to each and every round that passes through it.

We know all bullets aren't created equal that is why we lot test to find one that are as close to being equal as we can find. So, they by definition are a variable.

The action contains all the moving parts and either has good consistent ignition or it doesn't. If it doesn't, we can't expect a consistent outcome. (Strikes on target). Because of all of its moving parts it is also a variable.

If you consider the barrel, action, and bullet a system the barrel is the only constant. If we aren't getting all the shots where we want them where would be the most likely place to find the problem?

TKH

I follow your logic, but think there are a additional points to be considered. First, while the barrel may be (relatively) a constant during its time in use, in practice performance between barrels DOES differ, and the search for a better performing barrel makes it (at least) a long term variable in the system. Second, the system is dynamic, not static. The interaction of those imperfect bullets with the barrel and the vibration they cause therefore varies shot to shot. Third, there are multiple sources of vibration during a shot (striker impact, powder impulse, bullet rotation during barrel travel) that all interact to either reinforce or cancel depending on relative magnitude and time (phase) difference between them. Variability in cartridge features such as priming, charge weight and crimp strength are sufficient to induce shot to shot differences in the phase and magnitude differences between the vibration sources, thus making ammo selection an even more sensitive variable. Finally, I would suggest that the action (understood as receiver, bolt and trigger) has features that can make it either a long term (e.g.; truing, trigger selection) or short term variable (e.g. trigger release & striker force constency) in the system.

You weren't explicit about the conclusion you were suggesting from the observations you made (or I may be too dense to pick up on them... entirely possible!) My points are that the "system" is more complex than you have suggested; that some things you suggest as invariable should be considered as variables; and that many of those variables are controlled indirectly, in equipment selection.

Phil

 

[Tony K Harper]

I follow your logic, but think there are a additional points to be considered. First, while the barrel may be (relatively) a constant during its time in use, in practice performance between barrels DOES differ, and the search for a better performing barrel makes it (at least) a long term variable in the system. Second, the system is dynamic, not static. The interaction of those imperfect bullets with the barrel and the vibration they cause therefore varies shot to shot. Third, there are multiple sources of vibration during a shot (striker impact, powder impulse, bullet rotation during barrel travel) that all interact to either reinforce or cancel depending on relative magnitude and time (phase) difference between them. Variability in cartridge features such as priming, charge weight and crimp strength are sufficient to induce shot to shot differences in the phase and magnitude differences between the vibration sources, thus making ammo selection an even more sensitive variable. Finally, I would suggest that the action (understood as receiver, bolt and trigger) has features that can make it either a long term (e.g.; truing, trigger selection) or short term variable (e.g. trigger release & striker force constency) in the system.

You weren't explicit about the conclusion you were suggesting from the observations you made (or I may be too dense to pick up on them... entirely possible!) My points are that the "system" is more complex than you have suggested; that some things you suggest as invariable should be considered as variables; and that many of those variables are controlled indirectly, in equipment selection.

Phil

Phil,

Great post. A lot of good information there. I was not trying to take this to any particular conclusion other than to point out that the barrel is not the most likely part to be the problem among the three components I mentioned, (actions, bullets, and barrels).

I have a wall full of takeoff barrels that got the blame but were later vindicated.

I was not suggesting rimfire shooting (the complete system) is in any way simple, I was just breaking it down into those three select parts. I can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

Thank you for your response.

TKH

 

[butchlambert]

I've told this story before. I've gone through many many barrels when it was my fault either my ability, wrong bullets, or load. Speaking of CF, many years ago I gave a buddy a barrel that I had no faith in. We were shooting in Seymour, Tx. He shot 2 zeros with it that weekend.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Let me give some food for thought. Not trying to change minds or opinions but just open up some discussion.

A barrel has no moving parts. A bullet travels through it in the same direction every time. The bore is either good or bad. But whatever it is, it is always the same from shot-to-shot barring a round being stuck or some other object. It does the same thing to each and every round that passes through it.

We know all bullets aren't created equal that is why we lot test to find one that are as close to being equal as we can find. So, they by definition are a variable.

The action contains all the moving parts and either has good consistent ignition or it doesn't. If it doesn't, we can't expect a consistent outcome. (Strikes on target). Because of all of its moving parts it is also a variable.

If you consider the barrel, action, and bullet a system the barrel is the only constant. If we aren't getting all the shots where we want them where would be the most likely place to find the problem?

TKH

Heres a guy that gets it. Thanks for stopping by tony.

 

[doclu60]

This has been an interesting thread. The following is just my opinion based on my experiences. There are several others that have posted here with more experience, and also better results than I have had in the short amount of time I have been shooting sanctioned, but very few.

A new Begara B14R costs a little over a grand new. Not sure the cost on the the aftermarket trigger already installed, or what the tuner cost was. Scrapping a big part of the rifle cost for just the action and trigger is a big cost factor. I have seen many who felt a factory mass produced action not intended for serious RFBR with additional custom parts installed fail miserably. You're looking at a giant magazine fed RBRP action that just does not fit the optimum configuration for shooting serious RFBR. That's just the start.

I assume your 18 targets were shot in sanctioned ARA competition. 18 targets? 2175 agg is based on 18 cards. Extremely small data base there. Same club? If so, probably even a smaller data base. If I am correct on the one club thing, I will bet my next new barrel that shooting several clubs and shooting 30-40 cards will drop that agg considerably. How many were 6 card matches?........which are more difficult to agg high on than 4 card matches.

There is a ton of stuff that is apparently unknown to you that dramatically impact agg and performance, even with optimal equipment. That is why the ARA agg line and the A-line are totally different, in most cases, as to how to get to the top of either. As George has posted, if your just looking for 'fun', your project may bring you joy, but you are going to spend a considerable amount of money getting there with no guarantee of the results. If you're looking for higher performance and wins over a stronger data/performance base than just 18 cards, possibly at only one club, you're peeing off pier 6 trying to make the platform you have asked about viable. Both from an ergonomic and economic factor.

If you want a fast Corvette, start with a Corvette. MANY before you have failed trying to make something that is not optimal be optimal. Just what I have seen over the last years, and I shoot both ARA UL and IR50/50 3-gun somewhat competitively.

Scott

 

[VLNBYR]

I'm still in the "go for it" camp. Worst case scenario he ends up with an extra barrel that still has value and a used stock that has value when he goes back to original. Doing his own work so it counts as a hobby. Don't see him saying he has a goal of big time ARA.

 

[doclu60]

I'm still in the "go for it" camp. Worst case scenario he ends up with an extra barrel that still has value and a used stock that has value when he goes back to original. Doing his own work so it counts as a hobby. Don't see him saying he has a goal of big time ARA.

John, I understand your position on the subject and can't really disagree. The fact remains his thoughts on how good the rifle is now is based on a very limited span of results, especially if he achieved those results at one club. You, as much as anyone, should know that. My statement about getting to the top of either Agg or A-line was not to infer that was his goal, just adding knowledge that both are very different. IMO, A-line is a much better judge of equipment and shooter than just 18 cards of agg. That's all I was saying. Hope to see you in Georgia in March.

Scott

 

[linekin]

I probably have a Ratchet take off barrel I could donate to this project.What size is the tenon? Probably got a reamer you could borrow too,albeit not my preferred reamer. You wouldn't be out much other than shipping. Lemme know.

 

[VLNBYR]

I would guess that 95% of all purpose built ARA rifles are not winning matches on any kind of a consistent basis. So if a guy builds one on a Bergara action he already owns and it doesn't win matches what does he have to lose other than less money than the rest of us lose. Enjoy the ride...Have a good time...SHOW UP & SHOOT

Scott...Signed up for Georgia with Ralph and Todd.

 

[GerryinPa]

1Merlin,

Quite right but in my post, I said the system was the barrel, bullets and action.
Was only trying to deal with those factors. This has nothing to do with the shooter, the wind conditions, the bench you drew, or your technique. All are very big factors, but not the question.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

TKH

Thanks for your input Tony.
I guess some other info I can put out there is over at Mr Calfee's website I had a thread and he was helping me get my rig accurized. Tony may have seen a thread over that I'm not sure? but that was also a great help getting me a jump start on benchrest shooting.
G.
FYI... All my targets were shot on the factory ARA Target which may help explain the inflated aggregate. I was going to shoot factory class this year but the work I've done to my rifle bolt I don't believe I will qualify? that's what got all this started and considering rebuilding this rifle into an open class setup.

 

[GerryinPa]

Let us know how it goes please.

Sure no problem. I know it's a 27x3 metric thread. I just have to break down a setup on my small lathe and put on my threading setup. I use inserts and thread away from the headstock, like Joe Pie teaches. I'll give it a go on some scrap aluminum and see what I come up with.

 

[doclu60]

2175 agg last year was in the top 30 in the nation. Improve on that and get the minimum targets, etc. who cares what action you have.

FYI... All my targets were shot on the factory ARA Target which may help explain the inflated aggregate. I was going to shoot factory class this year but the work I've done to my rifle bolt I don't believe I will qualify? that's what got all this started and considering rebuilding this rifle into an open class setup.

Well, the 'top 30' just got changed. Since we now know it was Factory targets, and not actually shot in match conditions, that 2175 agg just went to the low 60's in performance nationally for the Factory outdoor agg line in the 2022 season. And those were actually shot in match conditions over several venues with a lot higher target number to boot.

Don't get me wrong, or read between lines that aren't there. I am not trying to be malicious or rain on your parade, but I now feel even stronger about the viability of the project producing even moderate results in UL since this new piece of information has been revealed.

It's your money, your time, and your joy (or lack of joy depending on how your project turns out) trying to make this rifle into an Unlimited rifle. IMO, after seeing quite a few projects like what you are contemplating over the years give less than 'joyful' results, that you may want to pursue a different path. Perhaps you could get another bolt for the rifle (factory/not modified), ditch the tuner and shoot ARA Factory with it anyway. The Jewell trigger is not an issue or rules infraction. Another option is to shoot the new IR50 Factory class this year. IDK for sure, but the bolt could very well not be an issue in that new class. Shooting sanctioned RFBR is a lot of fun and I do wish you the best of luck, however you decide to proceed! You asked for opinions, and I have shared mine in my posts here, nothing more than that.

Scott

 

[ELR Researcher]

2175 agg last year was in the top 30 in the nation. Improve on that and get the minimum targets, etc. who cares what action you have.

Hm. two shooters posting the same question/comment at the same time...

Seems the OP is referring to shooting ARA Factory [I assumed shooting in actual ARA matches]. Agg position, at the national level, would be then be "Factory Outdoor Agg" or the "Factory Indoor Agg". In 2022, a 2175 agg would place the shooter 63rd (outdoor - 818 shooters in total with a score) or 40th (indoor - 57 shooters in total). OP, please clarify whether you are shooting outdoor or indoor, factory or unlimited. Thanks.

BTW, three years ago I tried shooting a CZ 457 MTR in unlimited - custom barrel, custom stock work (mods to factory stock), aftermarket trigger spring, a JNL tuner, and only Tenex ammo (rifle). When I went to my 2500X pro-build, I picked up 600 (six hundred) points, yearly agg to yearly agg. And a year's more experience.

Also BTW, if you are not lot testing, you are just wasting your time - assuming you have any interest in being competitive. If you are just in it for fun, suggest you stick with the Bergara...and try lot testing.

 

[GerryinPa]

No problems,
My AGG was outdoor, ARA Factory cards. I will be shooting ARA Open Class because my rifle may not qualify for factory anymore. I did some bolt work, polishing, smoothing ramps, that may disqualify me for Factory class. Thanks,
Gerry

 

[GerryinPa]

Since you mention actions like 2500 and Turbo, one assumes you are building for disciplines like ARA, IR 50/50, USBR, etc. If so, most of the top competitors seem to focus on the barrel and the ammo as the key determinants of how competitive a rifle will be in competition.

But that presumes an action for which the ignition is reliable and barrel squareness to the action and concentricity between barrel and action is essentially a given. That isn't always the case with factory actions.

Folks that have built successful rifles on factory actions often have had to have a gunsmith work over factory actions like Win 52's and Rem 37's to "blueprint" or "true" them. I suspect you might want to figure on doing that if using the Bergara action. For the disciplines you are contemplating building for, action stiffness contributes to accuracy and rifles are therefore usually single shot. You need to understand that a repeater action is a compromise in that respect. Are you going to keep it original, or sleeve/plug the magazine cutout and build/fit a loading tray? Additionally, many shooters are finding that the ergonomics (assuming right handed shooter) of a right bolt, left port (RBLP) configuration is an advantage shooting from the bench, something you give up if you reuse your Bergara action.

Another consideration... while the barrel and ammo generally determine how well the rifle can shoot, the trigger and stock will determine how well you can shoot up to its capability. Few trainer triggers are going to be truly competitive in rimfire benchrest disciplines today. The Bergara's 700 pattern allows you to fit a good selection of low trigger pull match triggers, so that's a plus. Just make sure you plan on fitting the action into a stock designed for the discipline(s) you plan to shoot. There are good reasons for the differences between benchrest, precision tactical, sporter, prone, and 3P stocks.

Every build involves tradeoffs, and some darned fine competition rifles have been built using commercial actions. I hope this helps you identify the decisions you will need to consider, whichever route you go.

Hey Skipper,
I was rereading your post and what you said made a lot of sense. I had the action out of my stock and on the Bergara the opening for the magazine on the bottom of the action is about . 575" x .1.300" which only left room for the neck of the magazine in for loading. This surprise me because I was going to make a plug to stiffen the action and turn it into a single shot but I don't think I'm going to do that now seeing there's such a small opening. Thanks for the input have a good night,
Gerry

 

[Mdhmsmith]

Hey Skipper,
I was rereading your post and what you said made a lot of sense. I had the action out of my stock and on the Bergara the opening for the magazine on the bottom of the action is about . 575" x .1.300" which only left room for the neck of the magazine in for loading. This surprise me because I was going to make a plug to stiffen the action and turn it into a single shot but I don't think I'm going to do that now seeing there's such a small opening. Thanks for the input have a good night,
Gerry

I wonder if there is enough metal to turn Savage threads in the receiver.

 

[JimSC]

I am thinking about picking up a B14R with the steel barrel for ARA factory and while researching came across this guy who after a lot of mods is getting sub MOA performance at 50 and 100. With a good benchrest stock, some action blueprinting, and a decent barrel it might be competitive in unlimited.

here is a link to his playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSygLrrNnzQTHvS_jcgBh9WX00KaUJdd

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I wonder if there is enough metal to turn Savage threads in the receiver.

Not savage threads! It would kill the accuracy

M27-3 is 1.063 major dia so youd have to bore it out and go to a bigger custom size.

 

[mudduck]

I am thinking about picking up a B14R with the steel barrel for ARA factory and while researching came across this guy who after a lot of mods is getting sub MOA performance at 50 and 100. With a good benchrest stock, some action blueprinting, and a decent barrel it might be competitive in unlimited.

here is a link to his playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSygLrrNnzQTHvS_jcgBh9WX00KaUJdd

Buy the time you do all that u could be setup with a custom action gun.

 

[JimSC]

Buy the time you do all that u could be setup with a custom action gun.

I agree. I stated earlier in this thread that if I ever go to Unlimited a custom gun will be acquired. I was just giving the OP a link to show him what others have done and the results