• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Does seating depth eventually repeat small groups and what is good increment?

I personally have had no luck with adjusting seating depth in two separate Savage rifles. Both 223Rem, one a model 10 and the other a Model12. Bullets have been a couple 62gr, 5 different 69gr and a 68gr.

The throat in the Model10 is so long I cannot load that long to touch. The Model12 with a 69gr Sierra Match King I started at .010" off touch all the way out to suggested OAL and never found a load length that tightened up.

I know it works and have seen it work with friends and their custom cut barrels, I just question how well it works with most factory stock barrels.
 
Here is where a lot of threads go into swirl because the shooting world has a variety of contexts where the answer for a heavy section barrel on a stiff action in a stiff stock, is different than the answer for a thin flexible barrel in a flimsy action and a flexible light stock.... so keep in mind that some answers are based on one end of the spectrum or the other.... Carry on... YMMV
@KMW 1954

I left out a key concept in my statement above, that is, the design of the chamber, throat, and rifling also have a strong impact on what happens. One has to put the discussion into context with respect to the design and quality of the barrel versus the likelihood that the barrel and gun can even produce a group at all or make it obvious that one change in a load variable can make a significant change in the group.

When I was young, the factory barrels of Weatherby's magnum hunting rigs had long freebore. You could not seat a bullet out that far but that wasn't the intent anyway. Those design features were intended to increase the margin against high pressure while allowing high velocity for hunting rigs.

The other popular brands had a variety of chambers and person had to know what they had on a factory barrel. In theory, they had some say in the matter when the barrel was replaced. A hammer forged barrel from Remington wasn't always the same from two different eras even when discussing heavy barreled varmint rigs.

Custom barrels tended to have less scatter in their outcome, that is, when fed the bullets and recipes they like.

The lack of what I will call standardization forward of the neck meant that the results of seating depth searches on off the shelf sporting rifles was a crap shoot.

Sometimes, the results are good but not put in the proper perspective. When the baseline expectation is not kept in perspective, a good grouping for a given context is viewed as 'bad" or "no effect", when in fact for that system the results are as good as can be expected in the composite results for that design.

When it comes to "seeing the difference" and using small samples... Guess which context, off the shelf lightweight sporting, or heavy high quality custom match gun makes it easier to see group size changes... ones where the baseline is to divide by 2 MOA or the ones where you divide by 1/4 MOA?

Try to keep in mind, off the shelf lightweight sporting barrels may seem like they are not responding when they in fact are. This is easy to prove when the rigs are fed ammo they don't like versus ones they do, but the perspective can be thrown off if we are splitting hairs between small changes in what is as good as that system will do, versus not seeing any changes because the gun is already doing as good as it ever will.

We would all like every barrel to shoot small. Fact is they don't all compete if we are talking BR and many will also not cut the grade when talking highpower or F-Class. The context is important, the chamber details are important, and so is the concept of diminishing returns as the rig shoots as good as it can.

A change in the recipe may not show when you are bouncing up against the lower limit of the gun's potential. It may be easy to see a 1/2 MOA difference from a seating depth change in a system with a 1/4 MOA potential, but finding that difference in rigs that shoot 2 MOA is hard with small samples. Best to know which discussion you are in up front. Carry on. YMMV

Merry Christmas.
 
I personally have had no luck with adjusting seating depth in two separate Savage rifles. Both 223Rem, one a model 10 and the other a Model12. Bullets have been a couple 62gr, 5 different 69gr and a 68gr.

The throat in the Model10 is so long I cannot load that long to touch. The Model12 with a 69gr Sierra Match King I started at .010" off touch all the way out to suggested OAL and never found a load length that tightened up.

I know it works and have seen it work with friends and their custom cut barrels, I just question how well it works with most factory stock barrels.
Put them "to touch" and with a shoulder bump of .002 - .003" you will be that far into lands (jam?) upon firing. (Shoulder moving forward with bullet) My Savages like that.
 
Last edited:
Put them .003 into jam. My Savages like that.
Saying .003” INTO Jam is the same as soft seating bullets. The only way to push a bullet past JAM is to increase the neck “tension” which will yield a new jam number. I think I understand what you are saying and I believe it’s akin to soft seating. Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you. Thanks
Dave
 
Saying .003” INTO Jam is the same as soft seating bullets. The only way to push a bullet past JAM is to increase the neck “tension” which will yield a new jam number. I think I understand what you are saying and I believe it’s akin to soft seating. Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you. Thanks
Dave
I edited my post to add clarification. "To Touch"
 
I personally have had no luck with adjusting seating depth in two separate Savage rifles. Both 223Rem, one a model 10 and the other a Model12. Bullets have been a couple 62gr, 5 different 69gr and a 68gr.

The throat in the Model10 is so long I cannot load that long to touch. The Model12 with a 69gr Sierra Match King I started at .010" off touch all the way out to suggested OAL and never found a load length that tightened up.

I know it works and have seen it work with friends and their custom cut barrels, I just question how well it works with most factory stock barrels.
Could be many reasons here, but nobody said you have to load to or off of “touch”. Many of my loads start at mag length and then I go shorter to find a depth that load likes. Your barrel may not like the powder/bullet combo. I have model 10’s and 12’s that all shoot well under moa, and my 223 Savage loads are mostly all under 2.255 COAL.
 
Could be many reasons here, but nobody said you have to load to or off of “touch”. Many of my loads start at mag length and then I go shorter to find a depth that load likes. Your barrel may not like the powder/bullet combo. I have model 10’s and 12’s that all shoot well under moa, and my 223 Savage loads are mostly all under 2.255 COAL.
I had hoped in my post that it would be understood that I was only referring to what I have experienced with my own 2 Savage rifles. Which again had been that seating depth position in these rifles has not provided any significant change to the loads. So either these rifles or these bullets do not seem to be jump sensitive.

In the Model10 I can load a 62gr Hornady FMJ so long it will not hold in the case neck. But what I have found with both these rifles is tat they both seem to like being loaded .005" to .010" longer tat the recommended length.
 
I had hoped in my post that it would be understood that I was only referring to what I have experienced with my own 2 Savage rifles. Which again had been that seating depth position in these rifles has not provided any significant change to the loads. So either these rifles or these bullets do not seem to be jump sensitive.

In the Model10 I can load a 62gr Hornady FMJ so long it will not hold in the case neck. But what I have found with both these rifles is tat they both seem to like being loaded .005" to .010" longer tat the recommended length.
If I get a long throat like that I load the base of the bullet even with the bottom of the neck shoulder juncture (of a flat base bullet, a boat tail the boat tail is under that line) fill it with a powder to the base and start my load development.
 

Eric has quite a surprise in this video when Speedy tests the seating depth of Eric’s ammo.
Finding a way to measure a baseline (jamb or touch doesn’t matter as long as it’s repeatable) is critical.

After watching Speedy in the first video, I decided compare that method to the way I normally check touch. I came up with a .002” difference both are extremely repeatable. One method is referenced off the case head, the other off the shoulder. In my opinion, both are very good methods to get a repeatable touch point.
Good luck, keep us posted.
CW
I don't think that determining touch super accurate is critical since it's just a starting reference. The number you get depends on how hard you push the bullet into the rifling, neck grip and if you get any sticking and pull extracting. Touch keeps changing with bore erosion. I use the slit neck method and plot the data as follows. You need to get the neck tension perfect to get results like this. Different neck tension slightly different results. I shoot almost all bullets 10 thou back from this touch in my varmint rifles. Don't have to worry about sticking a bullet in the bore or dumping powder in the action.

If the data obtained doesn't cross the y-axis at zero. Extrapolate the line down or divide the larger number by the smaller number. 2.0168/.9841= 2. 04938. This method is good enough for me. I don't need any improvement or any other methods. My varmint rifles shoot about .400" groups or smaller. I am happy to shoot my favorite load for ten more years. Should be good with a new barrel.

When you get erosion at the beginning of the rifling it's difficult to get good numbers because the rifle has lost the sharp defined machined lead in surface.

Most of my charts show more scatter but good results.

1672407011714.png
 
Last edited:
@Gargoyle

Maybe you haven't seen this? "Wheeler Method"

Scroll down until you get to "finding your lands"

Heck, just watch them all.....
I watched them all. Thank you for directing me to that site. Some nuggets of knowledge gained. I'm going to make the adjustments recommended.

In the case with a barrel where the lands are so far out, the bullet would barely be sticking in the case...I have a gun like this. So, I think, "why not take advantage of the disadvantage" and seat a bullet in the theoretical goldy locks zone? DTL is no longer relevant because that distance is not attainable.
 
Last edited:
Great article and replies all. I do wish that Eric and the others would have gone a bit more
into the neck tension part of the subject because it goes hand in hand with the ITC and JAM topic IMHO
There is a difference between a .001 and .003 or .004 neck tension of the case neck on the bullet as it is pushed forward into the lands and whether it will reliably extract if need be, and also whether loading for a hunting rifle or a benchrest setup makes a difference.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,314
Messages
2,215,963
Members
79,519
Latest member
DW79
Back
Top