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Why do we get fanatical over barrel alignment?

This...Otherwise, you really have no way of knowing if anything moved or not. There's several reasons to check your work but the single most likely issue with some setups is that something moved. There's no other way to know and it's too late when it happens after the reamer goes in. I wasn't born last night. I seldom get into these discussions though, because someone always knows a better way. Just do what works. There are several methods that are PROVEN methods. It doesn't mean anything until you win some Nationals and set some records. And if a gun doesn't set the world on fire, it's often the gunsmiths fault, right? Again, just do what works and gives good results for you. There is more than one way and there's more than one way that have set records. I do all I can to give every single bbl the best chance of doing just that, that I know how to do. That's exactly what I get paid to do...just like bbl makers and action makers, etc. These threads come up from time to time but most of the posters read more threads than cut them, frankly. I appreciate anyone wanting to learn but there are multiple ways that are proven to work and the last thing an experienced smith wants is to have his methods questioned publicly by someone still learning the basics.
Check your work from the exact setup it was chambered in. Otherwise, you're checking your setup and lathe more so than the actual work. A good test fixture and setup should be at least twice as accurate as the lathe the chamber is cut in or else, it's pretty useless. So it's best done in the same setup. Many new lathes come brand new with more runout than you read about on the internet, checked by people that do it all day, with the right equipment. So, to have two different setups, in two different fixtures that are barely worth the claimed runout on their own is farting in the wind. Check your work from a single setup. There is no better way at all.

I enjoy reading these threads because there are often some good ideas presented. I think that's what should be the focus of these threads rather than one proven method being superior to another proven method. A hands on class by a winning smith is what's needed but you won't see many winning br smiths posting on these kinda threads, with a few exceptions. Is that because they don't want to share or because of the nature of these threads? That's obvious to me but it's still a good discussion. Carry on.
I think because it seems like the two things a guy getting into this focuses on is how to chamber and what brand epoxy you use to bed. Those two topics come up over and over again. Not that they are not important, but they are only two small parts of the overall build and its beat to death. I am sent rifles all the time that are not competitive. The finer details of building are never discussed and thats probably why they get missed so often.
 
I think because it seems like the two things a guy getting into this focuses on is how to chamber and what brand epoxy you use to bed. Those two topics come up over and over again. Not that they are not important, but they are only two small parts of the overall build and its beat to death. I am sent rifles all the time that are not competitive. The finer details of building are never discussed and thats probably why they get missed so often.
Yep! Agreed. I pay a lot of attention, and I know you do as well, to handling and ignition. The rest is pretty easy. But that stuff isn't sexy enough. Lol!
People buy a SEB and don't wanna talk about how much sand is in the front bag....Or a bat and changing out a firing pin spring.
 
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I think because it seems like the two things a guy getting into this focuses on is how to chamber and what brand epoxy you use to bed. Those two topics come up over and over again. Not that they are not important, but they are only two small parts of the overall build and its beat to death. I am sent rifles all the time that are not competitive. The finer details of building are never discussed and thats probably why they get missed so often.

Fair. The "other stuff" is a lot more complex, and even harder to describe with only words. There's almost zero real information out there on ignition, timing, corrective machine work on actions... There are nuggets here and there but if you don't already know what they're talking about they wont make any sense.

And... all of that "advanced" stuff isn't anything that a new guy can point to and look at. The day or two in gordy's class on the subject was incredibly eye opening.

You're the only guy that openly discusses it. If you had an in person course, I'd be there tomorrow with bells on.
 
Fair. The "other stuff" is a lot more complex, and even harder to describe with only words. There's almost zero real information out there on ignition, timing, corrective machine work on actions... There are nuggets here and there but if you don't already know what they're talking about they wont make any sense.

And... all of that "advanced" stuff isn't anything that a new guy can point to and look at. The day or two in gordy's class on the subject was incredibly eye opening.

You're the only guy that openly discusses it. If you had an in person course, I'd be there tomorrow with bells on.
Maybe one day. I have been getting asked more and more but have not made the decision to go that route. I met Gordy at the 2016 1k IBS Nats and he was a great guy. I can tell his personality fits with what he does very well. Im not sure mine would. I also would not expect to figure that stuff out right away. Working through it on your own and paying the dues is a good thing. Its part of it and in the long run I really feel your better off to learn most of this on your own because you will understand more of the whys. But the classes from guys like Gordy are a huge value. Honestly, if he charged 10k it would be worth it for most. That learning curve can take years on your own.
 
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That's 4 points.
I never understood that "approach". One cannot stick an indicator in the bore in a single location- throat, breech, doesn't matter- dial to "zero" and expect it's running true to the spindle axis.

It ain't..

You need two points, same indicator, slid along the Z axis.

How anyone can dial two points at the chamber, and two points at the muzzle- and have both at zero runout is impossible in my mind without bending the barrel.

If I'm wrong, someone draw me a picture and show me...

Flame suit on.

I count two points. Throat. Muzzle.

He's not saying get the throat true by measuring two points, and then get the muzzle end true by measuring two points.
 
That's 4 points.
I never understood that "approach". One cannot stick an indicator in the bore in a single location- throat, breech, doesn't matter- dial to "zero" and expect it's running true to the spindle axis.

It ain't..

You need two points, same indicator, slid along the Z axis.

How anyone can dial two points at the chamber, and two points at the muzzle- and have both at zero runout is impossible in my mind without bending the barrel.

If I'm wrong, someone draw me a picture and show me...

Flame suit on.
Nobody can dial in at four points. You misunderstood what I said. I said two points.

Some people choose to make those two points at the breech.

Some people choose to dial in one point at the throat and one at the muzzle.

Some people use a steady and don’t indicate anything.

I’ve had rifles that would shoot in the .1s with all three methods

I do have one method that I believe is better
 
Yep! Agreed. I pay a lot of attention, and I know you do as well, to handling and ignition. The rest is pretty easy. But that stuff isn't sexy enough. Lol!
People buy a SEB and don't wanna talk about how much sand is in the front bag....Or a bat and changing out a firing pin spring.

Well I added sand to my rear bag and had BAT change out the spring in my B. I was also in first place at the recent Deep Creek finals for 3/4 of the match--then I made two bad wind calls. But I guess we aren't suppose to talk about that stuff...... :cool:
 
You ever seen a savage barrel inside? Those buttons dont iron nothin
Ah...but how bad was it before the button was jammed through?

This thought just occurred to me, if I worked at Savage I'd put this in the suggestion box; "Instead of a lubricant on the button and in the bore, let's try lapping compound."

Might get a big bonus.
 
Well I added sand to my rear bag and had BAT change out the spring in my B. I was also in first place at the recent Deep Creek finals for 3/4 of the match--then I made two bad wind calls. But I guess we aren't suppose to talk about that stuff...... :cool:
Control the things you can and the rest is up to the wind gods. :)

Hal
 
I think a hole drilled 33 inches with less than 50 thou drift is... pretty good? I've had a barrel with as little as 5 thou... as much as 45... It doesn't change the outcome... just more elevation built into the gun on the ones that are further out.
 
I think a hole drilled 33 inches with less than 50 thou drift is... pretty good? I've had a barrel with as little as 5 thou... as much as 45... It doesn't change the outcome... just more elevation built into the gun on the ones that are further out.
Are you talking from centerline of the machine after indicating the chamber area? That's a lot of run out no matter how or where. It's more than I've seen on a bbl and it's hard to imagine how the drill, reamer and hone(if used) all ran out that far. Then, the bbl is put between centers and contoured. I get that you're cutting it elsewhere but at some point, that bbl was likely between centers and was reasonably straight between those two points. Just hard to see how it can be that far out. Seems like a drill that got that far out would run out the side of the bbl before it would correct itself by that much. Without running the numbers, and assuming it was contoured between centers at some point after drilling it, even on a 33" blank, that's like the drill running out .050ish over 16.5"and then correcting itself over the next 16.5". Seems hard to imagine, knowing what little I do about the tooling used to make bbls. That's why I'm asking how you are measuring it. The geometry doesn't work out for that to even happen. That's roughly .003" PER INCH over half the bbl length....and then, it comes back the same amount. Not saying you're not correct(double negative) but it's enough to make me wonder if we're talking about the same thing or not.
 
I've never seen a custom barrel that I thought the bore was that crooked.
It'd definitely be going back and a little runout in this regard, doesn't get me too excited. I've seen a lot a good shooting "crooked bbls." That's jus a lot. Hard to think there is enough clearance in the bore for the drill to run out that far without creating other problems, too. And then the rifling cutter or button had to follow that same path. A cut bbl uses a single point cutter. Wouldn't it be gouging in on one side?
 
Are you talking from centerline of the machine after indicating the chamber area? That's a lot of run out no matter how or where. It's more than I've seen on a bbl and it's hard to imagine how the drill, reamer and hone(if used) all ran out that far. Then, the bbl is put between centers and contoured. I get that you're cutting it elsewhere but at some point, that bbl was likely between centers and was reasonably straight between those two points. Just hard to see how it can be that far out. Seems like a drill that got that far out would run out the side of the bbl before it would correct itself by that much. Without running the numbers, and assuming it was contoured between centers at some point after drilling it, even on a 33" blank, that's like the drill running out .050ish over 16.5"and then correcting itself over the next 16.5". Seems hard to imagine, knowing what little I do about the tooling used to make bbls. That's why I'm asking how you are measuring it. The geometry doesn't work out for that to even happen. That's roughly .003" PER INCH over half the bbl length....and then, it comes back the same amount. Not saying you're not correct(double negative) but it's enough to make me wonder if we're talking about the same thing or not.

After I indicate the throat straight, the muzzle end has as much as 50 thou movement up and down with an indicator on the exterior of the barrel, at the muzzle - so I suppose it's really only half of that 50
 
After I indicate the throat straight, the muzzle end has as much as 50 thou movement up and down with an indicator on the exterior of the barrel, at the muzzle - so I suppose it's really only half of that 50

This is not at all out of line with what I have observed either. I actually record this number in case over time it might tell me something. In last 10 barrels, all kreiger or bartlein I’ve had two at .050-60, several under .005, and the rest in between. That said, I haven’t found it equates to good or bad shooting in any way (yet) but it certainly doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies.
 
The last personal barrel I did was a major brand. I got it aligned in the lathe and looked down the bore. It was shaped like a wet noodle - it went 4 different directions. It's a 223 and can clean a 500 yard f-class target with 77 grain bullets.
 
I’m satisfied with my current way of chambering. It gives me the REPEATABLE results I require.

I do study this stuff constantly and I’m always curious about others processes and theory behind them.

I will say this from my experience… if you do not dial your barrel in perfectly, and/or something moves in your setup while preboring, your results will be worse then if you used a tight fitting bushing and a the reamer then entire way.

The reamer wants to follow the hole it’s put into.

If the pre-bored hole isn’t done perfectly you make things worse.
^^^^^^^
One thing I do that I seldom see others do is I rough out the tenon just to get th heavy cutting out of the way,and then I establish the best chamber I can true to my pre determined indicated portions of the barrel.

Only then doI I perform all of the other subsequent machining operations.

Think about it before you ask “Why”?
 

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