GUN SHOOTS ZEROS VS WINDFLAGS

[JEFFPPC]

So, we spend lots of money, time, sweat, and sometimes tears trying to mate bullets, powder, guns, scopes, and a zillion other little ingredients to come up with a precision rifle that SHOOTS groups in the zeros. A few do, most don't but we but great effort into that quest. There are 4 group matches listed in the IBS short range results for 2021. In thosen 4 matches, mostly championships, 168 shooters participated. There were only 6 aggs barely getting into the high ones much less getting in the loan ones or close to a zero. My question to you is this. To we obsess to much about them guns and loads while overlooking for the most part the skill, or luck, that determines who wins on a given day. Wind flags and conditions. What do you guys think. For one I like to be able to shoot back to back groups in the low ones or zeros when tuning a load, usually in good conditions....or......would I be better of with the good groups being low 2s but studying wind and flags and practicing in poor conditions. I am thinking the later. Don't forget, 168 shooters , 7 eggs, only 6 slightly less than a 2 plus agg. That's only 3.5 percent of the aggs for the year less than a 2.0.

 

[std7mag]

Lets face it Jeff, your better at reading the wind than i am.
By a large degree!
Also while you spend more time shooting matches, i'm more focused on the hunting aspect of shooting.
Doesn't mean i don't like small groups! Can drive a person insane chasing them!

Personally, i like shooting in windy conditions. (The cold, snow, freezing rain aren't fun, but educational on their own)

Either match or hunting, seldom is the wind perfect.

Hence why you'll find me at the range with 15mph gusting 30 winds.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't care if I ever shoot a zero if I have a gun that will consistently shoot .140s-.160s in good conditions and no wtf's. I'll take that gun all day long. But you're right, when it comes down to it, in real world match conditions, it's never about the best rifle as much as it is about who screws up least. He or she, with a good rifle and tune, and screws up least, is usually the winner. It takes all of it.
As those results attest, a .2 rifle can win in the right hands but that leaves virtually no room for error.

 

[Bocephus]

So, we spend lots of money, time, sweat, and sometimes tears trying to mate bullets, powder, guns, scopes, and a zillion other little ingredients to come up with a precision rifle that SHOOTS groups in the zeros. A few do, most don't but we but great effort into that quest. There are 4 group matches listed in the IBS short range results for 2021. In thosen 4 matches, mostly championships, 168 shooters participated. There were only 6 aggs barely getting into the high ones much less getting in the loan ones or close to a zero. My question to you is this. To we obsess to much about them guns and loads while overlooking for the most part the skill, or luck, that determines who wins on a given day. Wind flags and conditions. What do you guys think. For one I like to be able to shoot back to back groups in the low ones or zeros when tuning a load, usually in good conditions....or......would I be better of with the good groups being low 2s but studying wind and flags and practicing in poor conditions. I am thinking the later. Don't forget, 168 shooters , 7 eggs, only 6 slightly less than a 2 plus agg. That's only 3.5 percent of the aggs for the year less than a 2.0.

Will qualify my response with, I make no pretenses of competing with anyone but myself.
But I think it all comes down to the lowest “common denominator.” Whether that is the action, barrel, scope, smith, components, preparation, bag setup, wind reading ability, nerves or the loose nut behind the scope.
A 2 moa shooter can sit down behind any rifle that Speedy shoots, and he will not shoot in the zeroes or ones.
All the ducks must be in a row. Time after time after time.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I don't care if I ever shoot a zero if I have a gun that will consistently shoot .140s-.160s in good conditions and no wtf's. I'll take that gun all day long. But you're right, when it comes down to it, in real world match conditions, it's never about the best rifle as much as it is about who screws up least. He or she, with a good rifle and tune, and screws up least, is usually the winner. It takes all of it.
As those results attest, a .2 rifle can win in the right hands but that leaves virtually no room for error.

So you mean like forgetting to tighten your rest or shooting out of the wrong row of bullets, lol. These items become real important as you grow older. Oh, forgetting to read the sigh on your rest that says TIGHTEN. So sounds like he who makes the fewest mistakes and reads the conditions is on the right track. I member whien...........

 

[JEFFPPC]

So Ken, you LIKE shooting in those conditions. Explains a lot, lol.

 

[K22]

Yes and no.

In competition, you should have a system (firearm / ammo) at least capable of "X" ring precision. At least that was the philosophy when I competed in pistol bullseye both in the Army post team and NRA civilian competition.

The pistol system would be tested in a Ramson Rest to eliminate human error.

With that said, in my experience, a significantly better marksman with ability to handle match pressure will almost always score higher with a lower capability system than one with a higher capability system who is a poor marksman and can't handle match pressure. Saw it all the time in pistol competition for 30 some years.

I would believe that same principle applies to rifle competition especially the ability to read wind and mirage because of the distances involved in rifle shooting.

I also believe, at least from a hunting perspective, there is way too much emphasis on equipment vs. marksmanship, especially field shooting capability.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So you mean like forgetting to tighten your rest or shooting out of the wrong row of bullets, lol. These items become real important as you grow older. Oh, forgetting to read the sigh on your rest that says TIGHTEN. So sounds like he who makes the fewest mistakes and reads the conditions is on the right track. I member whien...........

Yes, all that stuff too, but missing a switch and other flag reading stuff is what I was referring to more than anything. But yes, all that stuff too! It's just setting a gun up there and pulling the trigger, right? Lol!
I guess, knowing when NOT to pull the trigger is what I had in mind more than the other 500 things to keep just right. It's a tough game without much room for mistakes.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Right!

 

[MUP]

I'm just a beginning long(er) range shooter, but I believe, so far, one of the best pieces of advice given me by the manager of my local rifle range was this, to mostly know when NOT to shoot. Judging wind is it's own challenge, but I've found that I've improved, dramatically, my poa/poi percentage by just making myself wait for conditions to align for each shot. Just my 2¢ but it has been an invaluable tip that I think on and try to apply each time I'm at the bench now.

 

[RegionRat]

to mostly know when NOT to shoot.

One of the interesting differences between the way High Power matches are run in different parts of the world, is based on string fire versus pair fire.

In string fire, a shooter has a time window wide enough that they may choose to "not shoot" due to wind conditions and risk that the winds cycle around to their more favorable level or direction and still have time to hammer out the string in time.

In pair fire, you have to make your wind call and shoot taking turns with another shooter on the same target such that you cannot wait out the wind. You have a short window to take your shot.

I have watched some BR matches where the shooter waits out the wind and rapid fires their group to catch their favored condition.

There is merit to both styles of matches, but I am a believer that a shooter should learn both, that is, shooting on demand based on the wind call, and also learning to finesse the shots based on waiting on the flags.

Jeff's look at the statistics of the match shows that there is a factor of luck involved having the wind and your performance go your way in a given relay, then you can see which shooters have the overall long term aggs that prove they have a mastery of their sport but just didn't get lucky on a particular relay.

In the end you will find that the folks who always place high on average are good at tuning, shooting, and wind reading all at the same time, but there is enough random luck involved that they may not win on any given day.

 

[MUP]

Totally in agreement. So far I've just not been under any tight time constraints and have had the luxury of being able to wait for conditions to become favorable.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'll make an analogy here using using charge weight variance. I weigh powder to literally +/- less than one kernel, using predominantly Varget and H4895, which have fairly small kernels. Could I actually shoot the difference if I was weighing powder to only +/- 0.1 gr resolution? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "Not a chance. In fact, not even close". Nonetheless, I continue to weigh powder to a far greater level of precision than I could actually ever shoot. Why would I do that?

The answer is actually pretty simple. First, with a high end MFR analytical balance and years of laboratory experience with respect weighing small quantities, it takes me little more effort to do so than to weigh powder to a coarser increment. Second, I never have to worry about charge weight variance when I'm on the line shooting. In other words, with a very minor extra effort, I have effectively removed charge weight variance as a variable in the velocity equation.

In the end, we are trying to effectively eliminate as many variables as humanly possible during the load development process. Unfortunately, the wind conditions are a variable we can never remove and will always have to deal with. The good news is that if one has gone the extra mile and minimized the effect of other variables to the extent possible, I believe it allows one to focus a little better solely on reading the wind conditions, without concern or mental effort about whether other contributing factors (i.e. from the reloading bench) might come into play.

Of course, the caveat to all this is that many of us spend a lot of time at the reloading bench when a certain amount of that time, were it devoted to practicing wind-reading skills, might also be of significant benefit in terms of our scores in matches. It's all about identifying and understanding the limiting (largest) sources of error that lower scores and devoting time and effort to address them. Depending on the shooting discipline, wind is often the largest single factor in terms of match scores. Of course one needs a rifle/load that is shooting small to effectively practice wind-reading. Nonetheless, it begs the question why many shooters, myself included, don't devote more time to wind-reading when it is clearly often the largest single source of error in the chain of events leading up to how well we shoot in matches? I have no answer for that.

 

[RegionRat]

Of course one needs a rifle/load that is shooting small to effectively practice wind-reading. Nonetheless, it begs the question why many shooters, myself included, don't devote more time to wind-reading when it is clearly often the largest single source of error in the chain of events leading up to how well we shoot in matches? I have no answer for that.

Well put. There is a tendency to keep silent about the reality of range time. It is not a cheap resource for folks who live near population centers. Based on my lifetime, ranges and clubs are getting hard to come by.

I think the answer is that some folks do put in the effort for all of it (equipment and range time) and they are the ones who are typically on the top of the page.

Some folks have it easier than others in terms of resources, others have time but no resources, and yet some have the resources and the proximity to their practice range, and the drive to learn wind.

Not everyone makes it to the top ranks of the sport. If someone wants to climb the ranks and the barrier is range time, then they go after range time.

It still requires some physical ability and talent to become an above average shooter in any game, but one thing I see in common with champions is lots of trigger time and reading wind.

They run with equipment and components that are known good quality without a doubt, but I have seen good shooters take someone else's rig and out shoot them with it on many occasions.

A person living middle class just about anywhere can access the rifles and reloading equipment, but the same cannot be said about range time reading wind. I envy the folks who step onto their back decks, lay down, and test the loads they just made on their own property.

 

[Bronsin]

I'm relatively new to the SRBR game, so I don't really have much room to talk, butin the limited experience that I do have, I realized that being proficient at shooting in different wind conditions would separate the best from the rest.

I spent quite a few years tuning up varmint and hunting rifles and had a fair bit of success. The only rifle I had that wouldn't shoot under 1/2" at 100 was the .375 H&H, and it shot 5/8ths! I finally decided to put a .30BR barrel on my gun and a 36x scope and get serious. Within 2 sessions using windflags, I saw just how much my nice 3 shot groups really were in comparison. This rifle blew them all into the weeds. I learned how to steer my bullets into the group by using the wind, not waiting on perfect conditions to just shoot a tiny group. There's no truer statement, most times lol, than the wind is my friend. It's nice to shoot in the calm during load development, the rest of the time it's boring.

I'm also very fortunate to have an excellent range only 15 minutes from my work that has berms out to 1000 yards. I'm primarily a short range shooter, but I can't see not building something to get out there to at least 600 at some point in the future.

 

[Paula Marie Hamilton]

You also have to figure in stress. I've seen my son here at home put bullets in the same hole of a target at 50-100. But the first few events he shot on Akron's Club team he couldn't buy a 100. We talked and he said he felt like he was shooting for his life there. (He was on club trying to advance to NCAA). He said he could feel it in the pit of his stomach, he actually had to go to the doctor in October because he was getting an ulcer. At the end of the season he was again doing well, and had 5 schools looking at him. I asked how he got over the nerves, and he said Akron wasn't going to pick him up, but with 5 schools looking at him he knew he had made it, ( His goal was to shoot on NCAA team) and didn't feel he was shooting for his life. Shooting was fun again. So never underestimate the power of stress.

 

[SmokinJoe]

If you can't manage stress and make good decisions, which usually requires a lot of patience, it's gonna be a long day. I can still remember times when patience really paid off and even more when a little impatience messed up potential wins, records or personal bests. Benchrest is a tough game, no ability classes, no handicaps, you just bring your best and hope it's good enough. If not you just have to practice and keep working on the problem areas until you get there.

 

[David Milisock]

You also have to figure in stress. I've seen my son here at home put bullets in the same hole of a target at 50-100. But the first few events he shot on Akron's Club team he couldn't buy a 100. We talked and he said he felt like he was shooting for his life there. (He was on club trying to advance to NCAA). He said he could feel it in the pit of his stomach, he actually had to go to the doctor in October because he was getting an ulcer. At the end of the season he was again doing well, and had 5 schools looking at him. I asked how he got over the nerves, and he said Akron wasn't going to pick him up, but with 5 schools looking at him he knew he had made it, ( His goal was to shoot on NCAA team) and didn't feel he was shooting for his life. Shooting was fun again. So never underestimate the power of stress.

Being a parent, can stress you out but it's worth it. Good for him.

 

[ebb]

Working on your wind skills means you need wind and a range to shoot at to see if you got it right. refining your bench manners needs to be done on a bench with a gun and rest. However dreaming up and loading a new best load can be done at the reloading bench and mostly in your mind. I think it is a matter of being able to do it at home, any time of day or night. Then in a short time at the range you have the answer.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you got a gun that shoots twos thats as good as youll ever get. Ill take the zero gun that way i can see exactly what the flags do to the bullet instead of having a margin of error