Tac Ops-Mike Miller post

[Dusty Stevens]

Aren't they supposed to shoot "0's and .1's" with Federal Gold Medal match ammo?

Here's what that shows:

Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match

2694 fps

9.26 fps

27 fps

.480″

.214″

30Jun07

Thats the type info i could find but didnt want to argue too much. There would be reviews like “the gun came with a test target of .096- we werent able to reach that level but were satisfied with what we got” and it would be results like that.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Ignorant rookie on the board here and I have my Nomex undies on so I guess I am ready to take any heat that comes from this but.... there are shooting disciplines outside of bench rest where group size is not a necessary part of winning a match ... In many of these the input from the shooter and ability to read the atmospherics trump any mechanical advantage of a sub 1/4 MOA rifle centered to a millionth of an inch.

By all accounts and watching the videos posted here, the rifle is a good stick but if I laid down behind a Tac -Ops .308 on a bipod and a squeeze bag and shot FTR at 1000 or even drug my shorts across a tank trap and up a fake roof to engage an IPSC steel target at some unknown distance in a PRS type match, I probably wont shoot a statistically significant different score than if I took my old Mauser 98 with a Green Mountain barrel that I chambered by hand in a friends garage with a six pack and some bug spray.

I come from a back ground of knuckle dragging service rifle shooting where before 2016 a rank newbie and the National Champion would basically have identical equipment and the winner at the end of the day was the better shooter who had mastered iron sight alignment, trigger control and reading the range conditions in three positions using only a sling for support. I still shoot SR, SB and LR with a sling and have not shot BR or F class or PRS (yet).

The Tac OPs rifle seems to be a good choice for what is intended to do but there are other options that will also do the job. The arguing how many angels will fit on the head of a pin based on half of a story with no data beyond hearsay is actually a bit amusing. Advertising and statistics always are skewed to put the user in a better light. Take both with a grain of salt and make your own decisions.

My point is it is the Indian way more than the arrow and this and the other thread seem to be mixing apples and oranges and egos together with a healthy dose of ignorance of what is required in other shooting sports. Like Mike H. says - get off the keyboard and go shoot... I have already shot matches in 3 different states this year and isn't even March yet...

 

[CharlieNC]

Aren't they supposed to shoot "0's and .1's" with Federal Gold Medal match ammo?

Here's what that shows:

Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match

2694 fps

9.26 fps

27 fps

.480″

.214″

30Jun07

NO. Look at Tac Ops website, 1/4" for 3 shots at 100yd. And they don't claim the action and barrel are straight within a few millionths. And they don't claim everybody is capable of shooting that well. And they don't claim the ammo manufacturer will ever change anything. Again, from hundreds of reviews over 20 years the users have been satisfied that what they bought met the claim. Surely some have not, and required correction, but that appears to be rare just as with any trusted custom rifle builder. The amount of misinformation on some threads is amazing.

 

[drop_point]

The fact that the ammo changed was a lie. The ammunition was made before the claim as to when the ammunition change. The ammunition didn't change. It was cover.

A little history...

Back when, Sniper Central was being highly supported by TacOps. You'd see the owner of TacOps post regularly on the webpage. Even though Mel (owner of Sniper Central) couldn't get aggs under 1/4 MOA with his rifle, he still fully supported TacOps. Notice that Sniper's Hide HATED TacOps and would ban people for bringing them up back when the site was sponsored by GA Precision. Sniper's Hide became the dominate webpage and Sniper Central slowly faded away. Then suddenly TacOps wanted to put a rifle in Frank's hands and the tune suddenly changed...even before the rifle was delivered, you could see praise for TacOps rifles. Funny, money talks; money SCREAMS!

At the end of the day, there really is nothing special about the TacOps rifles. Just a Remington 700 with some work that nearly any good builder can do. Exclusivity, eye-candy...hell, jewelry is what you get when you get one. Oh, and TacOps will chamber in other calibers, but those aren't showing up to win at PRS either. Hmmm.

ETA: before Frank got his TacOps, a poster from Sniper Central showed up on Sniper's Hide posting lots of glamour shots of TacOps rifles. I'm sure that was organic, too.

 

[Tokay444]

Aren't they supposed to shoot "0's and .1's" with Federal Gold Medal match ammo?

Here's what that shows:

Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match

2694 fps

9.26 fps

27 fps

.480″

.214″

30Jun07

No.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Aren't they supposed to shoot "0's and .1's" with Federal Gold Medal match ammo?

Here's what that shows:

Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match

2694 fps

9.26 fps

27 fps

.480″

.214″

30Jun07

There lies the rub. They say 1/4 moa. The 0s and 1s were someone else saying stuff. They don't say what 1/4 moa means. How many shots in the group? Is that average group size? best of 10 groups? Just "1/4 moa" which is a nebulous term without specifics.

Its clear that with the right factory ammo they can shoot "close" to their claim for a 3 shot average. I think it would also be fair to say that hand loads would certainly be exceptional in these rifles.

That said from the actual performance reviews I have seen on these guns there are probably wiser ways to blow 6-7k.

 

[AlNyhus]

Ignorant rookie on the board here and I have my Nomex undies on so I guess I am ready to take any heat that comes from this but.... there are shooting disciplines outside of bench rest where group size is not a necessary part of winning a match ... In many of these the input from the shooter and ability to read the atmospherics trump any mechanical advantage of a sub 1/4 MOA rifle centered to a millionth of an inch.

I agree...lots of ways to have fun and enjoy fine shooting rifles.

If the groups a rifles shoots isn't important for the discipline, why would the builder advertise it? Simple...that's the performance standard that is universally recognized for accuracy. Marketing works. Like the guy that buys a new ZL1 Camaro that "...runs in the low 11's". He takes it to the track and it's a low 12 second car.

When those group numbers are tossed around, people that shoot disciplines where group sizes are the standard used for winning are going to pay attention and opine. It's no different than if I got on the Interweb and told people how my 30BR Benchrest rifle can ring gongs out to 1,000 yds. with ease. People that play the game are going throw the B.S. flag. And they should.

The TacOps rifles are certainly well built guns, like many out there. No issue there. I'm glad we have as much shooting going on now as we do..something out there for everyone to enjoy!

It's only 7 degrees here and I'm headed out to f-form some cases.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jelenko]

The fact that the ammo changed was a lie. The ammunition was made before the claim as to when the ammunition change. The ammunition didn't change. It was cover.

A little history...

Back when, Sniper Central was being highly supported by TacOps. You'd see the owner of TacOps post regularly on the webpage. Even though Mel (owner of Sniper Central) couldn't get aggs under 1/4 MOA with his rifle, he still fully supported TacOps. Notice that Sniper's Hide HATED TacOps and would ban people for bringing them up back when the site was sponsored by GA Precision. Sniper's Hide became the dominate webpage and Sniper Central slowly faded away. Then suddenly TacOps wanted to put a rifle in Frank's hands and the tune suddenly changed...even before the rifle was delivered, you could see praise for TacOps rifles. Funny, money talks; money SCREAMS!

At the end of the day, there really is nothing special about the TacOps rifles. Just a Remington 700 with some work that nearly any good builder can do. Exclusivity, eye-candy...hell, jewelry is what you get when you get one. Oh, and TacOps will chamber in other calibers, but those aren't showing up to win at PRS either. Hmmm.

ETA: before Frank got his TacOps, a poster from Sniper Central showed up on Sniper's Hide posting lots of glamour shots of TacOps rifles. I'm sure that was organic, too.

Very cool history!

 

[AlNyhus]

NO. Look at Tac Ops website, 1/4" for 3 shots at 100yd.

Hi Charlie.

A couple taps on the calculator shows that the .480 average group size in the testing is fully 92% larger (almost double the group size) than Tac Ops guarantees with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.

That a .214 single group was fired tells you that while the average group size was .480, there were a bunch of groups quite a bit bigger than the .480 average.

Again, no knock on anybody or any product. Facts are facts. and there they are.

Full cup of coffee and off to the range!

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[CharlieNC]

Hi Charlie.

A couple taps on the calculator shows that the .480 average group size in the testing is fully 92% larger (almost double the group size) than Tac Ops guarantees with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.

That a .214 single group was fired tells you that while the average group size was .480, there were a bunch of groups quite a bit bigger than the .480 average.

Again, no knock on anybody or any product. Facts are facts. and there they are.

Full cup of coffee and off to the range!

Good shootin'. -Al

Like darkangel said, what does that mean? If I'm buying an accuracy guarantee, I want to be sure the terms are clear and understood by both parties. There is still much debate and little agreement within the shooting community regarding the definition, statistics, etc. In this case I "assume" it means the builder did the warranty shots before shipping? What do most gunsmiths warranty in this regard, I don't know, as I have never had an accuracy guarantee?

Have fun shooting, I'll be going back again next week and like you with a full mug. So you know the first stop when I get there.

 

[jelenko]

Ah, right. My understanding of the accuracy guarantee from, for example, Les Baer is you can get 1/2 MOA group with the right load. Not that every group will be 1/2 MOA. Hence, the test target shows it can be done. The proof is left to the student.

 

[drop_point]

Accuracy guarantees are nothing but traps for the consumer. The tiny groups that nobody achieves are wallet groups to hype the consumer.

 

[CJ6]

I'm back from the store with more popcorn AND beer...........

 

[Tokay444]

Hi Charlie.

A couple taps on the calculator shows that the .480 average group size in the testing is fully 92% larger (almost double the group size) than Tac Ops guarantees with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.

That a .214 single group was fired tells you that while the average group size was .480, there were a bunch of groups quite a bit bigger than the .480 average.

Again, no knock on anybody or any product. Facts are facts. and there they are.

Full cup of coffee and off to the range!

Good shootin'. -Al

Guarantee is in the rifle, not the shooter.
Mike Miller was able to agg five 5 shot groups under 1/4” at 100 yards, and if Mike Rescignio can’t print a sub 1/4” 3 shot group at 100 yards the rifle doesn’t leave the shop.

 

[mikecockcroft]

there are numerous big name hunting rifle makers that are selling all they can make for more then $7,000.00
Tac ops rifles probably shoot better then these other guys

 

[drop_point]

Guarantee is in the rifle, not the shooter.
Mike Miller was able to agg five 5 shot groups under 1/4” at 100 yards, and if Mike Rescignio can’t print a sub 1/4” 3 shot group at 100 yards the rifle doesn’t leave the shop.

Is it "a" sub 1/4" group for three rounds? How many tries? Or is it an aggregate? Once it leaves the shop, would the guarantee be dissipated?

Obviously you can't warranty the shooter's ability, but even a squirrel finds a nut once in a while. Obviously, the Army sniper from Sniper Central agg'ed closer to 1/2 MOA with his. Does that mean he's an inadequate shooter? Or was the guarantee fulfilled when the rifle left the shop?

 

[drop_point]

there are numerous big name hunting rifle makers that are selling all they can make for more then $7,000.00
Tac ops rifles probably shoot better then these other guys

Does one rifle of poor value make another rifle of similar price good value? I'm not following the logic here.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I still say that any rifle that the tolerances are held in the millionths of an inch for $7000...is a BARGAIN. But I'm not gonna go back and re-read the other post to see where or who made that claim, for it.

 

[jelenko]

If I've got it right, Tac Ops doesn't claim to hold tolerances within millionths. Someone reported that a barrel that was measured was within a few millionths - doesn't say anything about what they work to; just one barrel was centered within millionths.
If I got it right.

 

[Bamban]

Ignorant rookie on the board here and I have my Nomex undies on so I guess I am ready to take any heat that comes from this but.... there are shooting disciplines outside of bench rest where group size is not a necessary part of winning a match ... In many of these the input from the shooter and ability to read the atmospherics trump any mechanical advantage of a sub 1/4 MOA rifle centered to a millionth of an inch.

By all accounts and watching the videos posted here, the rifle is a good stick but if I laid down behind a Tac -Ops .308 on a bipod and a squeeze bag and shot FTR at 1000 or even drug my shorts across a tank trap and up a fake roof to engage an IPSC steel target at some unknown distance in a PRS type match, I probably wont shoot a statistically significant different score than if I took my old Mauser 98 with a Green Mountain barrel that I chambered by hand in a friends garage with a six pack and some bug spray.

I come from a back ground of knuckle dragging service rifle shooting where before 2016 a rank newbie and the National Champion would basically have identical equipment and the winner at the end of the day was the better shooter who had mastered iron sight alignment, trigger control and reading the range conditions in three positions using only a sling for support. I still shoot SR, SB and LR with a sling and have not shot BR or F class or PRS (yet).

The Tac OPs rifle seems to be a good choice for what is intended to do but there are other options that will also do the job. The arguing how many angels will fit on the head of a pin based on half of a story with no data beyond hearsay is actually a bit amusing. Advertising and statistics always are skewed to put the user in a better light. Take both with a grain of salt and make your own decisions.

My point is it is the Indian way more than the arrow and this and the other thread seem to be mixing apples and oranges and egos together with a healthy dose of ignorance of what is required in other shooting sports. Like Mike H. says - get off the keyboard and go shoot... I have already shot matches in 3 different states this year and isn't even March yet...

Jeff,

If you want to use a 30-30 bolt gun to shoot midrange prone matches next time you are in TX, you can use mine. Michael Turner built it, his 30-30 shoots this good, mine not yet, but you can launch the 168 Hybrids at 2850 and be competitive at 600.



Nez