Can't resize down enough

[Wolfdog91]

Ok thanks everyone I'll try some of this. Question however. What's the chance my rifle just has a loose chamber and that's what's causing this ? I've read that H&R's are notorios for long throats so a loose chamber don't seem too far off to me

 

[Martin52]

....What's the chance my rifle just has a loose chamber and that's what's causing this ?

Certainly a possibility but we don't know that yet. After firing the cases a second time, test whether they still chamber - if they do, neck size and fire again. Do they chamber after a third firing ? You get where I am going with this. Reload and fire until the cases are fully fireformed and then take the dimensions - then see whether the die is able to set back the shoulder by 0.001 - 0.002. If it does, problem solved, if not, you have to re-assess what to do about the die.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Certainly a possibility but we don't know that yet. After firing the cases a second time, test whether they still chamber - if they do, neck size and fire again. Do they chamber after a third firing ? You get where I am going with this. Reload and fire until the cases are fully fireformed and then take the dimensions - then see whether the die is able to set back the shoulder by 0.001 - 0.002. If it does, problem solved, if not, you have to re-assess what to do about the die.

Ok so question. I don't own a neck sizing die. But since I can't bump these shoulder on my fire formed cases, I should be good to just keep using my full length right ?

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Yes no cam over on the press, don't get lube on the shoulders, you will need lube on necks and body of the case.

 

[Martin52]

Ok so question. I don't own a neck sizing die. But since I can't bump these shoulder on my fire formed cases, I should be good to just keep using my full length right ?

Although fired, the cases may not be fully fireformed. The objective is to get them fully fireformed before confirming shoulder setback. Without a NS die, you can partially resize the neck enough to hold a projectile without allowing the die to contact the shoulder - at this stage it seems your die is not contacting the shoulder anyway so this is not yet a problem in achieving a partial NS.

 

[Wolfdog91]

O and I also just fined a little experiment and wanted to see what y'all thought about it. Hope my hand writing isn't too bad lol.
Any way basically took four cases ( just range pick ups same brand) labed and measured all of them base to shoulder. None would chamber just as they where , could close the gun half way and they would just get stuck. Ok anneled re measured. Then I full length resized and bumped the shoulders and testing them again. I can't really do bolt lift with this gun because it's a break barrel as shown here
But what I could do was notice how much effort it too for the keeper to lock the breech. So using as little effort as possible I got to 1.458" till it took more then the slightest effort to lock the breech so I'm just gonna go with that as my max. Still though this thing is taking any full leng resized case that under 1.458" base to shoulder and it fire forming @ 1.450. it's a .... Weird Lil deal I guess but I recokon I can just size my other brass down to 1.451 and just fire form it from there and see what happens

 

[Wolfdog91]

Although fired, the cases may not be fully fireformed. The objective is to get them fully fireformed before confirming shoulder setback. Without a NS die, you can partially resize the neck enough to hold a projectile without allowing the die to contact the shoulder - at this stage it seems your die is not contacting the shoulder anyway so this is not yet a problem in achieving a partial NS.

Alright awesome ! Thanks !

 

[dellet]

You can’t be sure that the case from another rifle was not sticking due to diameters and causing the hard closing.

What you can do is if you have another one of those cases, is file off enough of the rim so that it will slide past the ejector. Size the case until it sits flush. And measure.

If you do this with one of your cases fired in your rifle, measure with the back side of your caliper the depth below the barrel surface. It won’t be precise, but should be within .002”

If you drill out the primer pocket, it’s easier to pull the case out or spin it where the ejector pushes it out, that will keep you from having to run something down the muzzle.

 

[NMUltra]

Another Ultra Varmint 223 shooter here. Winchester White Box is the best factory round for the 223 Handi, unfortunately they've been unavailable (or stupid expensive) for a while. I have several large coffee jugs of brass. An unfired round measures 1.457 with my Hornady A-330 insert, I measured 5 pieces of fired brass, lengths ranged from 1.462 to 1.465. SAAMI drawing says max is 1.4666, tolerance is -0.007
Chamber headspace dimension min is 1.4636, max is 1.4736
I wouldn't push the shoulder back on your PMC cases for the next reload, you're already too short...

 

[divingin]

Excellent advice, but I would add that if there is a gap when the case is inserted into the die at full stroke, your decapping pin is probably set too long and bottoming out on the case head before the case can fully enter the die. Fought that for an hour with a new set of dies before the light finally came on in my mind! Felt like I hadn't learned anything in 60+ years of loading!

I could see that, but what I was talking about was press stretch. Sizing brass puts significant force on the press frame, enough that the gap between the top and bottom of the opening will widen. A die set for contact while testing (no brass) won't contact when sizing.

End result is the same as your scenario: brass comes out too long because the entire sizing range isn't being used.

I was just saying to check that before grinding stuff.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so I'm going over this brass after shooting today. So according to the Hornady book I should sending these bullets out at cost to 2800fps on the low end However my chrono was telling me numbers like 2230 which I just checked up to it being weird idk. But ummm...most of this brass got even shorter. Everything was either sized down to or fired formed at 1.450-1.451 now alot of these are measuring around 1.448 ! A weird this is some are actually moving forward like I figured they should to 1.453 but their random. No really ryme or reason. 2 in this group,one in this group....weird.
Many it's just time to order a Lee neck die just for this gun ?

 

[Martin52]

If the fired cases can be chambered and noting the varying measurements you are reporting, the cases may still not be fully fireformed. If you have a 'generous' chamber the overall length of the case may well reduce after firing because the body is getting bigger (due to the generous chamber) whilst the OAL is reducing.

I think the LCD is a good idea until these cases are all fully fireformed because only then will you know the optimum shoulder set back measurement and whether you still have a problem with your FLS die.

 

[Metal God]

I thought I knew where this thread was going before ever clicking on it . I was happy to see very good suggestions to work out what was actually going on rather then the old "start grinding on something ) lol Lots of good suggestions here and you should not have a problem finding and fixing any issues you "may" have based on the recommendations so far .

Shorter brass CBTD after firing is not all that unusual on low pressure charges which if your chrono numbers are correct seems to be the case . The firing pin strikes the primer pushing the case fully forward . This leaves what ever head clearance there is ( gap between head and bolt face ) do to the difference between the sized case size CBTD and chamber size ( headspace ) . After primer is struck powder ignites creating pressure expanding case sticking it to the chamber walls leaving that head clearance . When the case expands outward the case length can actually get shorter . You only stretch the case longer if there is enough pressure to force the case head back against the bolt face taking up that head clearance discussed earlier . Low pressure rounds will not have enough pressure to stretch the case head back to the bolt face . These low pressure rounds that leave that head clearance while/after firing . Many times the primer will have been pushed out of the pocket a few thousandths and can be seen/measured after ejection . Are your fired primers pushed out of the pockets a bit compared to loaded unfired primers ?

 

[Wolfdog91]

I thought I knew where this thread was going before ever clicking on it . I was happy to see very good suggestions to work out what was actually going on rather then the old "start grinding on something ) lol Lots of good suggestions here and you should not have a problem finding and fixing any issues you "may" have based on the recommendations so far .

Shorter brass CBTD after firing is not all that unusual on low pressure charges which if your chrono numbers are correct seems to be the case . The firing pin strikes the primer pushing the case fully forward . This leaves what ever head clearance there is ( gap between head and bolt face ) do to the difference between the sized case size CBTD and chamber size ( headspace ) . After primer is struck powder ignites creating pressure expanding case sticking it to the chamber walls leaving that head clearance . When the case expands outward the case length can actually get shorter . You only stretch the case longer if there is enough pressure to force the case head back against the bolt face taking up that head clearance discussed earlier . Low pressure rounds will not have enough pressure the stretch the case head back to the bolt face . These low pressure rounds that leave that head clearance while/after firing . Many times the primer will have been pushed out of the pocket a few thousandths and can be seen/measured after ejection . Are your fired primers pushed out of the pockets a bit compared to loaded unfired primers ?

You know actually yes ! I noticed that last night ! Mabye eight of them had the primers sticking out some. I was thinking mabye I just did a crappy job priming but could have sworn everything had been flush. Heck I have even glued a 30cal gas check to my primer arm so it would shove my primers in deeper. Dang I wish I would have set them aside and measured them ! This i getting more and more interesting . And I'm not sure if it's just a typo but you say CBTD. I know about CBTO , what's CBTD?

 

[Wolfdog91]

Hay so another question, I'm also a bullet caster and I'm about to buy some cerosafe to do some chamber castings.yall reckon I should do a chamber cast of this rifle and compare it with a SAAMI spec picture ?

 

[Metal God]

You know actually yes ! I noticed that last night ! Ma ye eight of them had the primers sticking out some. I was thinking mabye I just did a crappy job priming but could have sworn everything had been flush

Yep , a perfect indication what others have posted is your problem , which is your cases are not fully fire formed yet . Actually it proves you don't really have a problem other then low charge/pressure .

 

[Metal God]

Hay so another question, I'm also a bullet caster and I'm about to buy some cerosafe to do some chamber castings.yall reckon I should do a chamber cast of this rifle and compare it with a SAAMI spec picture ?

No not really , I mean it's fun and kinda cool to do but not sure you'll actually find anything out a properly fire formed case wont tell you . In fact because you won't be closing the action to make a proper mold it's not going to give you your chambers headspace measurement . You will see your throat/leade though .

 

[Wolfdog91]

Yep , a perfect indication what others have posted is your problem , which is your cases are not fully fire formed yet . Actually it proves you don't really have a problem other then low charge/pressure .

Hmm alrighty then . Well if factory ammo isn't high enough pressure should I just go to the high side of my books charge range and try that ? Reckon starting around mabye23.1 grain of TAC would be a good start to try and get some pressure ? Supposed to get me to 3100fps and I can go up to 24.7gr as my max I know pressure and fps arnt 100% a side by side thing but

 

[Wolfdog91]

No not really , I mean it's fun and kinda cool to do but not sure you'll actually find anything out a properly fire formed case wont tell you . In fact because you won't be closing the action to make a proper mold it's not going to give you your chambers headspace measurement . You will see your throat/leade though .

Gotcha, was thinking along the line it would give me a solid idea of what my brass should be firing to at least in the sese of it proper conforming to the chamber

 

[Metal God]

Well if factory ammo isn't high enough pressure should I just go to the high side of my books charge range and try that ?

No , NEVER just start higher Always start at manufactures/manuals start levels . You don't know why that factory load has less velocity . You are almost certainly not going to be using the same components so you will not be comparing apples to apples . Another reason can be you are using a much shorter barrel which will result in anywhere from 40 to 80fps difference every inch less or more of barrel length , never assume anything when reloading . There are really to many variables to name as to why starting higher then recommended charges is never good .

Maybe once you have lots of experience using the same components in the same rifle you can draw some conclusions as to where to start . Right now I'd stick to the books until we/you get this all worked out .