17 hmr- will it outshoot 22lr at 50m?

[targetsmoker]

I'm guessing hummer is long for HMR.

 

[rimfireninja]

hummer = HMR = H(u)M(me)R ... HMR ... 17 hmr ... Hornady Magnum Rimfire

 

[rimfireninja]

I'm guessing hummer is long for HMR.

and two two is short for twenty two long rifle rimfire

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

late to this party, but not the least surprised that so many are married for life to two-two, or that the big money players with decades of heavily vested financial interest in two-two are so obsessed with locking out the hummer.. the 22LR cartridge is the least inherently accurate metallic cartridge still being manufactured, and for all of the hype about SD/ES consistency, the one most consistent thing about two-two ammo is it's inconsistency, and that applies to even the champagne match grade flavors .. unless you pay Eley or Lapua to test your individual rifle and cherry pick ammo one box at a time, not one lot# at a time ... most of the players who have invested thousands of dollars in elite class heavy bench two-two rimfire bench setups are simply afraid that they wll be made to look not all that elite, hence hummer verboten in competition .. I personally own 20 rimfire rifles, 17 of them scoped ... (32X 36X 40X 45X .. Sightron, Athlon, Mueller, etc) .. I have shot many hummers and have NEVER seen one yet that will not throw 3/8" 5-shot groups at 50 yards and sub-moa at 100 yards .. I own CZ, Anshutz, Tikka, Steyer-Zephyr, and Savage hummers .. I own CZ, Anshutz, Tikka, Steyer-Zephyr (wmr), Savage, Browning and Marlin 22s .. I own two each Annies in both two-two and hummer .. 1416AV 22LR and 1517AV hmr .. 1710 22LR and 1761 hmr .. I shoot twice a week at local range, CCI std velocity or v-max for casual practice and Lapua Center-X or A17 poly-V tip when it matters .. in every case of two-two vs hmr with casual day sloppy shooter me on the trigger, hummer shoots tighter than two two, at both 50 yards and 100 yards .. I don't do heavy bench guns .. retired guy, advantage me, I shoot only what I like, when I like .. all mine are sporter/factory class guns , most under 8.5 #, some under 7.5#, none over 10.5# .. if I was passionate about Unlimited class heavy bench/chassis guns, I would just spend $17,000 on a Blieker/March/SEB and call it a day, but it's just not my game .. my "best" two two rimfires are the two Annies (though I do favor the 1710), with CZ 457MTR close behind .. my "best" five hummers are the two Annies, one each Zephyr, Tikka and CZ (all five too close to call) ... for myself, I judge my expectations and results by not less than 10-shot groups but consider realities defined by not less than 30 consecutive shots ... in elite class two two its all about ammo ammo ammo .. with hummers it is not nearly so much ... as for ammo consistency, that is mostly about chrony data, but far too many fail to realize that rimfire chrony SD/ES data should be looked at as a percentage of median muzzle velocity ... 17 hmr ammo is not all it could or should be, but speed is king, less time in transit to target, same inertia, less bullet drop and less wind drift, neither of which have anything at all to do with bullet weight .. the A17 stuff is better than most, and it does not cost quite as much as Tenex/Lapua/RWS champagne, not even in the shameless price gouging era .. so ... make mine a hummer ... YMMV

You really think all it takes is spending a lot of money and that will guarantee success at the top tier of RFBR like ARA, PSL and iR50/50
have you ever shot your hummers in a sustained 15-20mph with gust in the 30-35mph+ during a match?

Lee

 

[rimfireninja]

The CZ457 MTR is a great rifle. It is probably pot luck as to how well the OEM MTR barrel performs but you can always get an aftermarket barrel. Lilja makes a good one. There are several aftermarket triggers available for it.

yeah, Timney now offers a CZ 457 trigger.. recently put one in my CZ 457 Varmint (17 hmr), and another is now on order for my CZ 457 MTR (22LR) .. drops the trigger pull to ~10z if I remember rightly, feels good, clean, crisp, as expected

 

[rimfireninja]

You really think all it takes is spending a lot of money and that will guarantee success at the top tier of RFBR like ARA, PSL and iR50/50
have you ever shot your hummers

Lee

No, I know better than that, but I also know for a fact that 17 hmr can legit compete head to head vs $5000 custom built two two rimfires in same weight class w/ same accessories .. and I know for a certified fact that hmr has less bullet drop and less wind drift in whatever cross breeze, that is a well documented fact .. look up ballistic charts .. speed is king, less time in transit to target .. wind drift is all about aerodynamic drag and bullet profile, bullet weight is totally irrelevant, light crosswind breezes or hurricane winds that remains true, and 40% of bullet weight at 250% velocity is same/same inertia as 22 subsonic .. I also know BR50 killed itself by becoming a spending contest, and it looks like ARA is going the same way since bought up lock, stock, and barrel by Eley .. IR5050 does it better by doing rifle weight classes, but the pricey two two people simply do NOT want hummers to compete .. rimfire competition has always been dominated by dollars and probably always will be .. also note in this thread, only ONE other person here has apparently witnessed hummer vs two two in competition , and hummer holds it's own, deny that testimony ... NOW ... if we may be so bold, kindly tell us how many times YOU have shot 17 hmr in 50 yard/100 yard competition in a sustained 15-20mph with gust in the 30-35mph+ during a match? ... (if the answer to that question is "never", well that sort of puts your question in a somewhat different perspective)

 

[rimfireninja]

The Vudoo and RimX 17HMR and 17WSM builds certainly won't hurt but there is just no overcoming the mediocre at best 17HMR and 17WSM ammo.

Now, if they ever were to make some match quality ammo like they do the 22LR it would be game over for the 22LR's but since that will likely never happen the 17HMR and 17WSM will never see their full potential and will only ever be great little "hunting" level rimfire cartridges.

Vudoo and RimX do not manufacture rifes, they make only an action and an optional magazine to go with .. they are simply high end custom builds all the way in the long tradition of legacy 40X builds .. nothing wrong with that, but its nowhere near as "new & improved" as some think, no matter how , and does nothing special for hmr .. I have seen MBs field report on Vudoo 17 and it's substandard vs others ... 17WSM and 22 WMR is 3rd rate quality ammo at best and not likely to change.. there is no great reason to build better WMR ammo, because it's essentially still mired down by the inherently poor ballistics of the 22LR bullet, no matter how good the QA/QC may be or not be ..17 WSM uses nail gun brass, such as it is, and only ONE ammo manufacturer even bothers with it, just barely .. 17 HM2 could have been a great success story if trendy notions had not driven the MBAs-R-Us to rashly invest in semi-auto versions .. despite more recent efforts by Savage, they have simply repeated the same mistakes prior made by many others, and HM2 remains in a slow death spiral .. not so for hmr, which is already competitive with match grade 22, and can be made still better .. if Eley and Lapua do not succeed it killing it because they do not themselves control it

 

[B23]

Vudoo and RimX do not manufacture rifes, they make only an action and an optional magazine to go with .. they are simply high end custom builds all the way in the long tradition of legacy 40X builds .. nothing wrong with that, but its nowhere near as "new & improved" as some think, no matter how , and does nothing special for hmr .. I have seen MBs field report on Vudoo 17 and it's substandard vs others ... 17WSM and 22 WMR is 3rd rate quality ammo at best and not likely to change.. there is no great reason to build better WMR ammo, because it's essentially still mired down by the inherently poor ballistics of the 22LR bullet, no matter how good the QA/QC may be or not be ..17 WSM uses nail gun brass, such as it is, and only ONE ammo manufacturer even bothers with it, just barely .. 17 HM2 could have been a great success story if trendy notions had not driven the MBAs-R-Us to rashly invest in semi-auto versions .. despite more recent efforts by Savage, they have simply repeated the same mistakes prior made by many others, and HM2 remains in a slow death spiral .. not so for hmr, which is already competitive with match grade 22, and can be made still better .. if Eley and Lapua do not succeed it killing it because they do not themselves control it

I didn't say Vudoo or RimX made rifles, I said Vudoo and RimX, "builds". I have numerous semi custom builds that use Rem 700 receivers and I call them Rem 700 "builds" but nobody ever thinks Remington built them. But, per Vudoo's webpage it appears as though they do make rifles. https://vudoogunworks.com/rifles/

You seem to be a big fan of the 17 HMR and that's great but the 17 HMR ammo is, ehh ok, just like it is for the 17 WSM and 22 WMR. It's all what I'd call "production" grade ammo. I've shot cases upon cases of 17 HMR ammo and I've spent more time than I'm willing to admit measuring base to ogive length and chronographing both 17 HMR & WSM ammo and the only thing that is consistent about any of it is it's consistently inconsistent. Wild swings in base to ogive length and velocity, forget about it, it's all over the place. I've had nearly 200fps ES in the same box of 50 17 HMR ammo.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Vudoo does manufacture complete rifles, RimX does not.

Order Worksheet - Vudoo Gun Works

Have a question about a build? Want to know more about what makes us the best in the game? Shoot us an email or give us a call and we would be happy to chat

vudoogunworks.com

 

[rimfireninja]

Vudoo does manufacture complete rifles, RimX does not.

Order Worksheet - Vudoo Gun Works

Have a question about a build? Want to know more about what makes us the best in the game? Shoot us an email or give us a call and we would be happy to chat

vudoogunworks.com

no, they assemble rifles, using their V22 action and a lot of 3rd party parts manufactured by others, which you can choose from .. stock, trigger, barrel, etc, whatever .. and they do an EXCELLENT job, but assemble is not the same as manufacture, not even when done by highly skilled and trained gunsmiths .. CZ, Steyr, Anschutz, Tikka .. they manufacture all their own parts and assemble, although most of them using hammer forged barrels get their OEM barrels from "same" place in Austria .. there is really no such thing as a Vudoo OEM barrel or trigger, for example .. hence custom built .. you can purchase any combination of rifle components you want from multiple sources/brands/suppliers and hire an elite class gunsmith to put it all together .. vudoo or not vudoo, custom built is custom built, no offense intended or implied

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

No, I know better than that, but I also know for a fact that 17 hmr can legit compete head to head vs $5000 custom built two two rimfires in same weight class w/ same accessories .. and I know for a certified fact that hmr has less bullet drop and less wind drift in whatever cross breeze, that is a well documented fact .. look up ballistic charts .. speed is king, less time in transit to target .. wind drift is all about aerodynamic drag and bullet profile, bullet weight is totally irrelevant, light crosswind breezes or hurricane winds that remains true, and 40% of bullet weight at 250% velocity is same/same inertia as 22 subsonic .. I also know BR50 killed itself by becoming a spending contest, and it looks like ARA is going the same way since bought up lock, stock, and barrel by Eley .. IR5050 does it better by doing rifle weight classes, but the pricey two two people simply do NOT want hummers to compete .. rimfire competition has always been dominated by dollars and probably always will be .. also note in this thread, only ONE other person here has apparently witnessed hummer vs two two in competition , and hummer holds it's own, deny that testimony ... NOW ... if we may be so bold, kindly tell us how many times YOU have shot 17 hmr in 50 yard/100 yard competition in a sustained 15-20mph with gust in the 30-35mph+ during a match? ... (if the answer to that question is "never", well that sort of puts your question in a somewhat different perspective)

Here is the problem I have; you are stating and referencing ballistic charts who made those charts? ammo makers? who certified your facts? what sanctioning body were these matches that had head-to-head hummers vs two two?
you sure know a lot of answers on RFBR and why it is this way or that way, so with that you should know 17 cal. is not allowed in any of the current sanctioned RFBR. this also answers your question on whether I shot a 17 in a match.
also, my question TOO YOU IS is revenant to thread. I have shot in those conditions with a .22lr
I also seen guys shooting 17hmr on windy days and they admit the wind does cause problems for them.
also, perhaps your statement if I was passionate about Unlimited class heavy bench/chassis guns, I would just spend $17,000 on a Blieker/March/SEB and call it a day, was misunderstood as it seemed like you were saying all you needed to be competitive was spend $17K. by the way V3 Turbos, Trident and 2500X are what the majority in RFBR are using, never seen or heard of a Blieker could you tell me who might be shooting one in the US sanctioned RFBR?

Here is something I am wondering if the hummers are so good and accurate how come there is no organized sanctioning body to have matches held, since shooters like accurate rifles and it would be really popular like RFBR, NRL and PRS

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Vudoo does manufacture complete rifles, RimX does not.

Order Worksheet - Vudoo Gun Works

Have a question about a build? Want to know more about what makes us the best in the game? Shoot us an email or give us a call and we would be happy to chat

vudoogunworks.com

I agree they manufactures rifles and like most if not all rifle makers they source out the barrels to a barrel maker.

Lee

 

[rimfireninja]

I didn't say Vudoo or RimX made rifles, I said Vudoo and RimX, "builds". I have numerous semi custom builds that use Rem 700 receivers and I call them Rem 700 "builds" but nobody ever thinks Remington built them. But, per Vudoo's webpage it appears as though they do make rifles. https://vudoogunworks.com/rifles/

You seem to be a big fan of the 17 HMR and that's great but the 17 HMR ammo is, ehh ok, just like it is for the 17 WSM and 22 WMR. It's all what I'd call "production" grade ammo. I've shot cases upon cases of 17 HMR ammo and I've spent more time than I'm willing to admit measuring base to ogive length and chronographing both 17 HMR & WSM ammo and the only thing that is consistent about any of it is it's consistently inconsistent. Wild swings in base to ogive length and velocity, forget about it, it's all over the place. I've had nearly 200fps ES in the same box of 50 17 HMR ammo.

I am a big fan of both 22LR and 17 HMR, and I base my expectations on results, not advertising .. and yes, hmr can/should be improved upon .. but there is no shortage of data to show that all rimfire is inconsistent .. the match grade 22 stuff comes off the same production lines as the non-match grade stuff .. all they do is QA/QC sampling and whatever tests best on a given day goes in the highest priced box, it is not made differently .. you obviously have done enough ammo testing to know that not even a given lot number of any chosen flavor of match grade can be trusted, there is no guarantee, it can and does vary from box to box .. they don't do same on 17 hmr ammo, "there is no such thing as match-grade 17 hmr" at present, although there could be .. if you are going to cherry pick 22 ammo, then cherry pick hmr ammo also .. or choose to cherry pick neither, your time and money, your choice .. as for chrony data, the SD/ES looks much worse for hmr than elite grade match 22, if you are looking at absolute ft/min values .. look again at percent variance from median muzzle velocity, that is what counts .. if hmr at 3X the velocity of subsonic 22 had 3X the ft/min variance, the percent variance from median velocity is same/same, and the proprtional effect on target hit point variance is same/same .. true, not often will you find hmr that will truly match up same/same to highest priced match grade 22 because .. you guessed it, "there is no such thing a match grade 17 hmr ammo" ..it all comes down to cherry picking ammo if you want best vs best, in any case ... same reasons why centerfire folks handload to develop their own best stuff ... and yet, speed is king, 17 hmr has less wind drift and less bullet drop, that is undeniable, and that means a LOT in target shooting .. and I must respectfully disagree that ammo quality of 22 wmr and 17 wsm is same as 17 hmr quality.. 17 wsm and 22 wmr is the bottom of the barrel, because nobody cares, but still good enuff for Wile E Coyote .. ( I also own Savage and Zephyr in 22 wmr and both are pretty pitiful as tareget rifles when compared to same brand/model rifles in 17 hmr) ... A17 hmr ammo is better than average random 17 hmr simply because a rifle maker and a ammo compaany made a deal .. if a prestige name brand rimfire rifle maker like Anshutz, CZ, Tikka made a deal with CCI/Hornady, it could get better with very little extra effort, all it takes is better QC/QA testing and grading of same ammo off the same production lines .. but don't hold your breath .. until hmr overcomes the prejudicial resistance from rimfire organizations like ARA and IR5050, it ain't likely to happen .. but if ever it happens, the elite class 22 match grade stuff is going to take a very big hit very FAST.. (speed is king) .. in the meantime, when 17 hmr is ALLOWED to compete, it certainly can compete

 

[rimfireninja]

Here is the problem I have; you are stating and referencing ballistic charts who made those charts? ammo makers? who certified your facts? what sanctioning body were these matches that had head-to-head hummers vs two two?
you sure know a lot of answers on RFBR and why it is this way or that way, so with that you should know 17 cal. is not allowed in any of the current sanctioned RFBR. this also answers your question on whether I shot a 17 in a match.
also, my question TOO YOU IS is revenant to thread. I have shot in those conditions with a .22lr
I also seen guys shooting 17hmr on windy days and they admit the wind does cause problems for them.
also, perhaps your statement if I was passionate about Unlimited class heavy bench/chassis guns, I would just spend $17,000 on a Blieker/March/SEB and call it a day, was misunderstood as it seemed like you were saying all you needed to be competitive was spend $17K. by the way V3 Turbos, Trident and 2500X are what the majority in RFBR are using, never seen or heard of a Blieker could you tell me who might be shooting one in the US sanctioned RFBR?

Here is something I am wondering if the hummers are so good and accurate how come there is no organized sanctioning body to have matches held, since shooters like accurate rifles and it would be really popular like RFBR, NRL and PRS

Lee

well, you did ask..
so, merely as a courtesy ..
Q: what is a Blieker ? .. A: about $10,000 ..

Bleiker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BLEIKER Precision Engineering AG - Sportgewehre - Sporting Rifle

Precision Engineering 'for Winners' weltweit! Erfolge im Schiesssport sind das Resultat von Ausdauer, Leidenschaft und dem unbändigen Streben nach Präzision und Perfektion.

bleiker.ch

we presume you have heard of March "High Master" scopes

March High Master Series | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site

marchscopes.com

and SEB rifle rests

seb usa

SEB Rests USA

sebrests-usa.com

ballistic charts and graphs, google is your friend, broaden your horizons

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

well, you did ask..
so, merely as a courtesy ..
Q: what is a Blieker ? .. A: about $10,000 ..

Bleiker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BLEIKER Precision Engineering AG - Sportgewehre - Sporting Rifle

Precision Engineering 'for Winners' weltweit! Erfolge im Schiesssport sind das Resultat von Ausdauer, Leidenschaft und dem unbändigen Streben nach Präzision und Perfektion.

bleiker.ch

we presume you have heard of March "High Master" scopes

March High Master Series | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site

marchscopes.com

and SEB rifle rests

seb usa

SEB Rests USA

sebrests-usa.com

ballistic charts and graphs, google is your friend, broaden your horizons

By the way what's a Ninja? is that the motorcycle?

Lee

 

[Brsam]

well, you did ask..
so, merely as a courtesy ..
Q: what is a Blieker ? .. A: about $10,000 ..

Bleiker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BLEIKER Precision Engineering AG - Sportgewehre - Sporting Rifle

Precision Engineering 'for Winners' weltweit! Erfolge im Schiesssport sind das Resultat von Ausdauer, Leidenschaft und dem unbändigen Streben nach Präzision und Perfektion.

bleiker.ch

we presume you have heard of March "High Master" scopes

March High Master Series | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site

marchscopes.com

and SEB rifle rests

seb usa

SEB Rests USA

sebrests-usa.com

ballistic charts and graphs, google is your friend, broaden your horizons

There is literally NO top Ara or psl or ir5050 shooter using any of the equipment you listed. If they do they aren't serious rfbr shooters. Ther is no way you've seen any of them compete against each other lmao. Ill put my two two up against your hummer lmfao any day you want. It didn't cost 10k$ either or 5k$ for that matter and it's a full blown custom. Hummer? You do know that's what br shooters call killer barrels right? As far as eley buying ara hell that's old news man where have you been? I wait I know shooting your hummer lmao good one

 

[rimfireninja]

By the way what's a Ninja? is that the motorcycle?

Lee

good guess, but no, not motorcycle .. once a year local range Youth Day, I bring a black Chipmunk 22 w/ Millet red dot sight, a pink Crikett 22 w/ Millet red dot sight, and a Savage Rascal Target model 22 in Boyds laminate coyote pattern stock w/ bipod & rear bag and Nitro 6-24X scope, plus 500 rounds of generic 22 ammo, set up for the young kids to shoot, all FREE, 50 yards off bench, closely supervised, and only with parental consent (some of whom have never shot a rifle before) .. I also make up some "awards" to hand out to the kids, heat sublimation printed tags and such .. aka (you guessed it) Rimfire Ninja tags ... the kids do surprisingly well, and its great fun

 

[rimfireninja]

my great grand daughter shooting the rascal

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Man i got a couple of hmr rifles and some even nicer hm2 rifles. Having shot them off actual BR quality rests and knowing how to shoot good groups, i never once thought they were competitive with actual BR level two two rifles shooting even odd lots of match grade ammo warming the barrel up. Ive had an hmr since their debut and still coyote hunt with the outlaw remington 597, it just never crossed my mind i could be winning matches with em.

 

[rimfireninja]

Man i got a couple of hmr rifles and some even nicer hm2 rifles. Having shot them off actual BR quality rests and knowing how to shoot good groups, i never once thought they were competitive with actual BR level two two rifles shooting even odd lots of match grade ammo warming the barrel up. Ive had an hmr since their debut and still coyote hunt with the outlaw remington 597, it just never crossed my mind i could be winning matches with em.

no offense, but you likely won't win any matches with them - simply because they are so rarely allowed to compete - seems more than a tad odd that so many world class elite champion two-two shooters have such a low opinion of the deplorable 17 hmr that they simply will not allow the unworthy 17 hmr in competition, quite specifically because .. well ... uhhh ... because they don't want to win by such huge margins, bless their heart .. but best of luck with Wile E Coyote !