After reading the article on the Berger website on how to get the VLD bullets to shoot, my question is about charge. Where does one decide to select a charge when conducting their suggested method? Middle of all of their load data for that given powder? Once you have identified what seating depth works best, does one work up from that charge toward their list max charge?
Berger Question
- Thread starter MT257
- Start date
Fast14riot
Gold $$ Contributor
A coarse ladder (~1% steps) with bullets seated jammed is a good way to find max charge, or if shooting known combo take a middle charge and shoot the seating depth test.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
There are two slightly different approaches, dependent on whether the reloader cares about jamming bullets or not:
bergerbullets.com
The issue I assume you are referring to is the potential change in operating pressure across such a wide seating depth range. The simplest answer is that a charge weight that is safe at either 0.120" or 0.130" off the lands (i.e. the seating depth farthest from the lands in the test) should also be safe for the remainder of the seating depths. If that specific charge weight is not providing sufficient velocity for rounds seated closer to the lands, you may have to tweak it a bit.
Trying to cover that wide a seating depth range with a single charge weight may not always be realistic with all cartridges/powders/bullets, etc. Nonetheless, it is a way to cover a very wide seating depth range in order to find a much smaller seating depth region where a given bullet appears to shoot better than at any of the other seating depth region in the test. In other words, it is a very coarse test, but it covers a wide range. By nature, such tests are used initially to point one in a certain direction, with the expectation that you'd then go back and cover the specific region identified in the initial test using a much finer seating depth increment. At that point, you'd be covering a much smaller seating depth window and so pressure due to changing the effective case volume wouldn't be such an issue.
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.
bergerbullets.com
The issue I assume you are referring to is the potential change in operating pressure across such a wide seating depth range. The simplest answer is that a charge weight that is safe at either 0.120" or 0.130" off the lands (i.e. the seating depth farthest from the lands in the test) should also be safe for the remainder of the seating depths. If that specific charge weight is not providing sufficient velocity for rounds seated closer to the lands, you may have to tweak it a bit.
Trying to cover that wide a seating depth range with a single charge weight may not always be realistic with all cartridges/powders/bullets, etc. Nonetheless, it is a way to cover a very wide seating depth range in order to find a much smaller seating depth region where a given bullet appears to shoot better than at any of the other seating depth region in the test. In other words, it is a very coarse test, but it covers a wide range. By nature, such tests are used initially to point one in a certain direction, with the expectation that you'd then go back and cover the specific region identified in the initial test using a much finer seating depth increment. At that point, you'd be covering a much smaller seating depth window and so pressure due to changing the effective case volume wouldn't be such an issue.
Last edited:
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
I run a powder ladder first looking for pressure max and then back off of that to a “perceived node”and use that for the jump test. Whether or not there really exists a flat spot in a velo curve over a large sample I use that and it works.
I am currently running Berger 80.5 at 0.130” jump with great success after running the jump test. Hybrids usually work closer but in this Wylde chamber Service rifle … more jump tighter group
I am currently running Berger 80.5 at 0.130” jump with great success after running the jump test. Hybrids usually work closer but in this Wylde chamber Service rifle … more jump tighter group
Yes I am planning on following the second method listed. I just don’t need to waste components if it’s not necessary especially with the current marketThere are two slightly different approaches, dependent on whether the reloader cares about jamming bullets or not:
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.
The issue I assume you are referring to is the potential change in operating pressure across such a wide seating depth range. The simplest answer is that a charge weight that is safe at either 0.120" or 0.130" off the lands (i.e. the seating depth farthest from the lands in the test) should also be safe for the remainder of the seating depths. If that specific charge weight is not providing sufficient velocity for rounds seated closer to the lands, you may have to tweak it a bit.
Trying to cover that wide a seating depth range with a single charge weight may not always be realistic with all cartridges/powders/bullets, etc. Nonetheless, it is a way to cover a very wide seating depth range in order to find a much smaller seating depth region where a given bullet appears to shoot better than at any of the other seating depth region in the test. In other words, it is a very coarse test, but it covers a wide range. By nature, such tests are used initially to point one in a certain direction, with the expectation that you'd then go back and cover the specific region identified in the initial test using a much finer seating depth increment. At that point, you'd be covering a much smaller seating depth window and so pressure due to changing the effective case volume wouldn't be such an issue.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I can think of a relatively simply way you could test this with a minimum number of loaded rounds. I always "calibrate" the Quickload reloading program by obtaining an average velocity for 5 rounds loaded at a reduced charge weight, then adjusting the burn rate factor in the program until predicted velocity exactly matches the actual average velocity. It generally takes about 10 loaded rounds total (sighters/foulers + velocity rounds). You could do something similar starting with a lower/lowest charge weight value from a reloading manual with the bullets seated at the seating depth farthest from the lands, just to get a rough idea of where you might be on the pressure curve. Even three shots per charge would be enough. Including in the seating depth closest to the lands would only be a few extra loaded rounds and would tell you how much your velocity changed simply by seating the bullet ~0.120" farther out in the neck, and allow you to make a reasonable estimate regarding pressure between the two extremes in seating depth.
In order for this type of approach to work, you have to have a good feel for the expected velocity and pressure in a tuned load. Otherwise, you're back to guessing from the values in the manual. This is a situation where the use of a reloading program such as QuickLoad or Gordon's Reloading Tool can be very helpful.
D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
Since the OP's question was regarding selecting a charge weight , rather than that of seating depth , I'll open a can of worms and give my .02 cents worth . Factors involved in selecting a "Chage weight" are relative to : Magazine length , Chamber configuration , Single Feed , and Bullet weight , and not forget the caliber of the rifle being used . The question posed was somewhat broad-based as no caliber was specified , so I will use what I have learned over the years on this subject from my own experience in F-class TR with a .308 , single feeding the round .
My process to develop a "New" round begins with going to the load data charts for the bullet weight I've selected , and working the math , to arrive at a estimated velocity for that bullet , that will put me close , or into the better known velocity "Node" for the .308 cartridge . I've found that powder manufacturers data charts are generally "soft" on loading information , for competition loading and that a initial 60% of the so-called printed Maximum load is a reasonable starting point , for a single-load TR round . I am more concerned with the velocity node at this point in the process , and I will seat bullets at .020 off contact for initial testing . Finding the "Node" is usually accomplished within 15 -20 rounds , by running a ladder test , adding .020gr increase , i.e. .020 , .040 , .060 , .080 . Using a Chrono ; ( Lab ) to acquire the velocity data , I shoot the ladder at 100 yards . Hopefully ; at some point One test round group will achieve the Node velocity I'm seeking , and that particular "Load" will also "Group" reasonably well . A point of Intersection , if you will .
I take the data from the Intersecting group load , and load ten more rounds of that load . I also load five rounds with a additional .020gr increase in powder , for confirmation , that a minor increase is within velocity node requirements . If this second test confirms the original information , I can now begin to load test rounds with adjusted seating depths .
Safety Notice : This process is used in a Competition Rifle , with a 2013 F-TR Chamber , designed to load rounds longer than Magazine length , to allow greater powder volume to be loaded into the case for higher velocity , and to be able to maintain lower chamber pressures when fired . The deeper a bullet is inserted into a case for Magazine length , the more potential for increase in chamber pressure , and possible damage to the firearm . If unsure about this , or any loading practice , consult with a knowledgeable shooter , or Gunsmith .
My process to develop a "New" round begins with going to the load data charts for the bullet weight I've selected , and working the math , to arrive at a estimated velocity for that bullet , that will put me close , or into the better known velocity "Node" for the .308 cartridge . I've found that powder manufacturers data charts are generally "soft" on loading information , for competition loading and that a initial 60% of the so-called printed Maximum load is a reasonable starting point , for a single-load TR round . I am more concerned with the velocity node at this point in the process , and I will seat bullets at .020 off contact for initial testing . Finding the "Node" is usually accomplished within 15 -20 rounds , by running a ladder test , adding .020gr increase , i.e. .020 , .040 , .060 , .080 . Using a Chrono ; ( Lab ) to acquire the velocity data , I shoot the ladder at 100 yards . Hopefully ; at some point One test round group will achieve the Node velocity I'm seeking , and that particular "Load" will also "Group" reasonably well . A point of Intersection , if you will .
I take the data from the Intersecting group load , and load ten more rounds of that load . I also load five rounds with a additional .020gr increase in powder , for confirmation , that a minor increase is within velocity node requirements . If this second test confirms the original information , I can now begin to load test rounds with adjusted seating depths .
Safety Notice : This process is used in a Competition Rifle , with a 2013 F-TR Chamber , designed to load rounds longer than Magazine length , to allow greater powder volume to be loaded into the case for higher velocity , and to be able to maintain lower chamber pressures when fired . The deeper a bullet is inserted into a case for Magazine length , the more potential for increase in chamber pressure , and possible damage to the firearm . If unsure about this , or any loading practice , consult with a knowledgeable shooter , or Gunsmith .
Guys I just realized that I grabbed a box of the berger classic hunter vld hybrid bullets. These are .243 95 grain. I picked them up because my rifle has 1-10” twist and they matched, where as my twist was a little slow for the standard vld.
Now I guess since I realized my mistake, is the load work up the same for the berger classic hunter hybrid or will I need to follow the vld guidelines?
I’ve read that the classic hunters are less picky on the seating depth is this true? Can I use the recommended COAL and start at a lower charge and work up or are there other steps needed to get these to shoot?
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Now I guess since I realized my mistake, is the load work up the same for the berger classic hunter hybrid or will I need to follow the vld guidelines?
I’ve read that the classic hunters are less picky on the seating depth is this true? Can I use the recommended COAL and start at a lower charge and work up or are there other steps needed to get these to shoot?
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
Use the Hybrid jumps they are closer together. If you don't get a group you like then try some of the VLD longer jumps to find where it tightens up. I have had decent groups at 0.020" with the 95 Classic Hunters in a .243 Win .
Is there a separate page for hybrids? I have only read the vld page…
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
How to Load a Hybrid Bullet
Berger Hybrid Bullets were designed to be easy to load and tune to your rifle. Follow these simple steps to get started.
bergerbullets.com
Thanks I’ll give it a go. Save a few bullets as I won’t jam them like they recommend as it’s going to be a hunting round.How to Load a Hybrid Bullet
Berger Hybrid Bullets were designed to be easy to load and tune to your rifle. Follow these simple steps to get started.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
What is your max Magazine length OAL relative to a BTO / jump number?
I measured 5 times to get an average and came up with 2.267” base to where I contact the lans.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
I am sorry if I missed it but what rifle and chambering are you shooting ?
Weatherby vangaurd chambered in 243 win.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok so that length will fit in the box magazine so you don’t have to single load. What powder are you going to use ? I have a Rem. Model 7 predator in 243 and a 243 gas gun. Both shoot the 95 CH bullets well.
Thinking I was gonna try H4350.
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