Yup - figuring out why there is ES is much easier than trying to broadly reduce SD. If you have 2 shots ES of 70, you could shoot 10 more and you still wouldn’t generally have a good SD. If you see gross outliers, figure out if it is that case vs another, etc.
223 single digit S.D.
- Thread starter 6fatrat
- Start date
Yup - figuring out why there is ES is much easier than trying to broadly reduce SD. If you have 2 shots ES of 70, you could shoot 10 more and you still wouldn’t generally have a good SD. If you see gross outliers, figure out if it is that case vs another, etc.
I started loading my 223 60gr to 75gr bullets with N133 my SD and ES improved.
75 BergerVLD, 21.8 N133, CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2838 FPS
ES 16.45, SD 4.87, 10 shots
70 BergerVLD, 22.5 N133, CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2943 FPS
ES 16.7, SD 6.11, 10 shots
69gr TMK, 22.5 VV N133 CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2933 FPS
ES 21.41, SD 7.45, 10 shots
75 BergerVLD, 21.8 N133, CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2838 FPS
ES 16.45, SD 4.87, 10 shots
70 BergerVLD, 22.5 N133, CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2943 FPS
ES 16.7, SD 6.11, 10 shots
69gr TMK, 22.5 VV N133 CCI400, Lapua CASE, 2933 FPS
ES 21.41, SD 7.45, 10 shots
Yes, and I got better results with N-135 (and N-150 for that matter) than N-140.
Bartlein med Palma 5R, 6.8 twist, 30'' chambered with the ISSF (.169 freebore) reamer.
I have had repeated single digit SD success in my 223 Wylde chambered AR15s by using carefully prepped Lapua brass, Federal AR Match primers, and high percentage case fill with a few different powders.
Annealing is a must for uniforming neck tension. I have noticed that the sooner I shoot the ammo after annealing, the better the results as far as SD/ES is concerned. Lapua brass is so much better than anything else I have tried, although I get occasional single digit SD success with sorted Lake City and Federal brass.
Carefully seating primers to the right depth is very important, I like using a 21st Century hand priming tool to get the best results. Federal AR Match primers are the only ones that get me consistent, low SD results.
Certain powders perform best in my guns, and single digit SDs only seem to happen with high percentage case fills. I find that loads just shy of compression work well. IMR 8208 XBR is the exception, I can have a little bit of open space in the loaded case and still get single digit SDs. Varget, Shooter's World Precision, H4895 and Benchmark are a few of the other successful powders.
If your seating die leaves "rings" on your projectiles, you might look at getting a stem that better matches your bullet profile to attain consistency.
Pushing the shoulder back just enough vs returning it to factory specs with your FL resizing die is also important. Shoot for pushing back the shoulder of fired cases 2 thousandths / .002in and see if your results improve. Best of luck to you!
Annealing is a must for uniforming neck tension. I have noticed that the sooner I shoot the ammo after annealing, the better the results as far as SD/ES is concerned. Lapua brass is so much better than anything else I have tried, although I get occasional single digit SD success with sorted Lake City and Federal brass.
Carefully seating primers to the right depth is very important, I like using a 21st Century hand priming tool to get the best results. Federal AR Match primers are the only ones that get me consistent, low SD results.
Certain powders perform best in my guns, and single digit SDs only seem to happen with high percentage case fills. I find that loads just shy of compression work well. IMR 8208 XBR is the exception, I can have a little bit of open space in the loaded case and still get single digit SDs. Varget, Shooter's World Precision, H4895 and Benchmark are a few of the other successful powders.
If your seating die leaves "rings" on your projectiles, you might look at getting a stem that better matches your bullet profile to attain consistency.
Pushing the shoulder back just enough vs returning it to factory specs with your FL resizing die is also important. Shoot for pushing back the shoulder of fired cases 2 thousandths / .002in and see if your results improve. Best of luck to you!
I consistently see <10 fps SD's on target at 1000 yards from my .223 Palma gun. New or once-fired LC brass, N135, CCI400 primer, 80 or 88 ELD or Berger 90 VLD. Whether or not the SD is that good at the muzzle, I can't say, but they seem to be coming in at pretty consistent speeds at 1000. I'm guessing they don't, as the SD's are better at 1000 than they are at 600 yards (usually low teens SD's). I'm not doing any brass prep other than chamfering the case mouth with a VLD chamfer tool.
I think N-135 is a great powder in general, and gives consistently low SD's. It'll clean any sling target we shoot, but you have to point it in the middle. I'm still working on that.
You'll hear far better shooters than me preach up and down to not worry about SD's nearly as much as you do performance on the target. I'm starting to agree more and more, but SD IS a factor for 1000 yards, especially F-class.
I think N-135 is a great powder in general, and gives consistently low SD's. It'll clean any sling target we shoot, but you have to point it in the middle. I'm still working on that.
You'll hear far better shooters than me preach up and down to not worry about SD's nearly as much as you do performance on the target. I'm starting to agree more and more, but SD IS a factor for 1000 yards, especially F-class.
Attachments
Since the 223 case is so small, the slightest variation in powder charge has a larger percentage of change than would be the case with a larger cartridge... For example, a 0.4 grain variation in powder charge weight for 25 grains of powder has twice the percentage of change compared to the same 0.4 grain powder charge variance with 50 grains of powder.
For this reason, you should be using a good 3 decimal place (in grains) reloading scale if you want low ES with a 223... You simply require at least twice the powder charge accuracy than what is needed for a larger case.
As mentioned above, yes neck tension is key as it always is. I have posted in detail how to control neck tension before, by incrementing down in bushing size rather than just going in hot and heavy with a single bushing.
Next is seating depth... You cannot seat bullets into the donut. Make sure your throat is long enough for the bullets you want to use.
Next is free bore diameter... If you think about the effect of free bore diameter clearances, this is what part of your chamber is responsible for aligning the bullet to the rifling. If it is sloppy then the bullet can enter the rifling at proportionally odd angles. The angular offset of the bullet will create proportional variance in muzzle velocity. Obviously a bullet that starts perfectly straight will have the least resistance and the resistance will increase as the offset angle in increased. This will directly affect your muzzle velocity.
This brings us all the way back to the chambering reamer dimensions, particularly in the free bore diameter and further to how large the free bore diameter actually is in your chambered rifle. Do not assume what it says on your reamer is equal to what you have in your barrel. Minimizing free bore clearance will pay dividends here, as long as you do not create a safety hazard by being too tight.
Using fire formed and neck only sized brass will also help dramatically... Twice fired is best. This reduces the variability of energy that is lost to blowing the case out to fit the chamber walls.
Bottom line is that the percentage of variable error needs to be proportionally decreased for 223 over larger cartridges.
If you can do all of the above, you will be dangerous on the range.
If you can do all this with a 223, you will be that much more dangerous if you apply the above to something larger and more forgiving.
For this reason, you should be using a good 3 decimal place (in grains) reloading scale if you want low ES with a 223... You simply require at least twice the powder charge accuracy than what is needed for a larger case.
As mentioned above, yes neck tension is key as it always is. I have posted in detail how to control neck tension before, by incrementing down in bushing size rather than just going in hot and heavy with a single bushing.
Next is seating depth... You cannot seat bullets into the donut. Make sure your throat is long enough for the bullets you want to use.
Next is free bore diameter... If you think about the effect of free bore diameter clearances, this is what part of your chamber is responsible for aligning the bullet to the rifling. If it is sloppy then the bullet can enter the rifling at proportionally odd angles. The angular offset of the bullet will create proportional variance in muzzle velocity. Obviously a bullet that starts perfectly straight will have the least resistance and the resistance will increase as the offset angle in increased. This will directly affect your muzzle velocity.
This brings us all the way back to the chambering reamer dimensions, particularly in the free bore diameter and further to how large the free bore diameter actually is in your chambered rifle. Do not assume what it says on your reamer is equal to what you have in your barrel. Minimizing free bore clearance will pay dividends here, as long as you do not create a safety hazard by being too tight.
Using fire formed and neck only sized brass will also help dramatically... Twice fired is best. This reduces the variability of energy that is lost to blowing the case out to fit the chamber walls.
Bottom line is that the percentage of variable error needs to be proportionally decreased for 223 over larger cartridges.
If you can do all of the above, you will be dangerous on the range.
If you can do all this with a 223, you will be that much more dangerous if you apply the above to something larger and more forgiving.
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I equate volume sorting of brass directly to astrology and superstition.
The internal volume of a rifle case is meaningless before it has been fired in your rifle twice with only a neck resize. Once that has occurred, the outside dimensions are about as closely matched to your chamber as it ever will be.
Beyond that, the internal dimensions are directly reflected by the weight of the case.
Anyone sorting internal case dimensions by water capacity will experience a water weight variance that exceeds the volumetric difference you are attempting to measure. All water weight efforts provide is a rough... rough measurement of case capacity that can be used to theoretically calculate some internal ballistic information.
Sort your brass by weight, and fire form them to get the most inform internal dimensions.
You're saying that you believe that a direct measurement of internal volume is astrology, but you think you should weight sort your brass instead? Thats totally backwards thinking if you're looking for the most accurate measurement of volume. Brass weight that is the same identical external dimensions -could- also vary in brass density, which makes measuring water volume via weight the more precise of the two measurements.
Water volume measurement in my experience is also extremely consistent and repeatable and the margin of error on the measurement definitely does not exceed the difference between cases that you can measure.
Seriously???
You actually believe that 2 cases from the same manufacturing lot that weigh the same have a volumetrically different amount of brass that you can detect by filling it with water?
Any chance there is a bubble inside the case somewhere that you cant see?
Any chance the meniscus from one case to the next may be the cause of the weight discrepancy?
Any chance you got a little inconsistent wetness or drop of water on the outside of the case?
Any chance that the cases you are measuring also have different outside dimensions as well but you lack the ability to measure that due to the complex geometry? Hence the reason I said fire form them twice.
I have no doubt you will find different weights when filling your cases with water, but I have no confidence whatsoever that case to case brass density variability can be determined by something as fundamentally crude as the water fill method.
If you use this method to sort brass, you are not sorting brass by volume. You are sorting brass according to the error in the method you are using to sort the brass.
Across the world, metals are sold by weight for a reason. You can calculate the weight of a piece of brass by multiplying length x width x height x conversion factor of 0.3034693 (for brass) to determine the weight in pounds. The conversion factor may change slightly based upon the metallurgical subtleties and alloy composition but within a lot of brass or even within a brand of brass, the error you describe is so minute that it would require advanced scientific equipment to detect.
I'll exaggerate the point for clarity... Perhaps think of your rifle chamber as the volume you are filling instead of the case. You are filling that volume with a variety of components that displace space within the chamber. If you melted the brass into a ball and put it inside the case, it will regardless of shape displace a specific and consistent amount of space by weight.
Even if somehow the water method was accurate, and could reliably determine the inside volume of two cases that weigh the same... it remains irrelevant, because under pressure, the case will expand to fit the chamber walls and then the internal volume of two identical weighing cases will be the same.
Even if there were some microscopic volumetric difference.... I'm sorry, but water is not the way to find it and the error is far too slight to bother considering. Best to focus energy elsewhere.
I'm going to take this even one step further for you... I have loaded rounds that produce single digit ES with 223 using 80, 88 and 90 grain bullets and once fired military brass from lord knows how many lots that I bought, processed, annealed and sorted only by weight to within 0.1 grains. Once they have been fired in the rifle twice, they are as good as anything at less than 1/10th of the cost. If I can do this on a regular basis with random cases from the military, its the process I described above... not water.
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TylerFromMS
Gold $$ Contributor
I made a really good load with AR Comp, BR4s/205m(same velo and grouping) and 85.5 hybrids. I think it’s a 6.5 Krieger? It’s one of the issf reamers or something like that. It’s absolutely hilarious to shoot. Once you get those 85.5s rolling, they’ll buck wind pretty nice.
Keep in minds loads that are safe in my chamber blah blah blah you’ll shoot your eye out.
Keep in minds loads that are safe in my chamber blah blah blah you’ll shoot your eye out.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
Sorting 223 brass by weight only tells you gross differences between manufacturers and lots. Within a lot most of the weight variation is due to the way the extractor groove has been cut and means nothing to internal capacity.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
This is my new chamber with that same reamer with a Hornady 88 ELD m. Thank you for posting those loads as I shoot they are, and that's what I was going to use so now I have a ballpark.
Most cases are drawn stampings. Many think weight variance is in the head and rim.
I think it's more in the thick to thin transition in the body where the case is drawn into shape.
That would have a bigger impact on volume.
I sort brass because I can and it eliminates the odd light or heavy outlier.
Just trying to find the one or two outliers you end up checking every case.
Why not toss them into peanut butter jars separated by a grain? It's free labor at this point.
Once fired 22 Nosgar with 2.1 grains of brass removed. That's a lot of brass. What would it look like with that much weight taken out of the groove? OK, went ahead and tried it. New picture, 2.1 grains removed from circumference. Neither should impact volume.
Total variation in one lot is more than 2 grains.
I remember some years back that Federal .223 cases were found to have thin webs. Remember that?
Web thickness is a volume issue.
Edit instead of adding a new post:
2 grains of brass (about 130 graines per cc) reduces the internal volume of a 30cc case about 1.5 percent.
That's space, NOT charge. If your load density is 98% a heavy case might be 100% with the same charge weight. A light case might be 96%. An outlier, outside 3 Sigma of the mean MIGHT make a difference. Once eliminated, make dummy rounds out of the one or two light/heavy per 1000.
I think it's more in the thick to thin transition in the body where the case is drawn into shape.
That would have a bigger impact on volume.
I sort brass because I can and it eliminates the odd light or heavy outlier.
Just trying to find the one or two outliers you end up checking every case.
Why not toss them into peanut butter jars separated by a grain? It's free labor at this point.
Once fired 22 Nosgar with 2.1 grains of brass removed. That's a lot of brass. What would it look like with that much weight taken out of the groove? OK, went ahead and tried it. New picture, 2.1 grains removed from circumference. Neither should impact volume.
Total variation in one lot is more than 2 grains.
I remember some years back that Federal .223 cases were found to have thin webs. Remember that?
Web thickness is a volume issue.
Edit instead of adding a new post:
2 grains of brass (about 130 graines per cc) reduces the internal volume of a 30cc case about 1.5 percent.
That's space, NOT charge. If your load density is 98% a heavy case might be 100% with the same charge weight. A light case might be 96%. An outlier, outside 3 Sigma of the mean MIGHT make a difference. Once eliminated, make dummy rounds out of the one or two light/heavy per 1000.
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urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
Faster powders than typical for bullet weights have lower spreads in my experience.
As a general rule, that's been my finding too over many years of loading this cartridge. Some powders though are just better (or worse) than the norm. My first try with AR-Comp late last year shows that in my current barrel/chamber, this is an outstanding performer in this respect with c. 80gn bullets.
A factor that is rarely mentioned in this regard is primer choice. The more I shoot small and SP cartridges up to at least the Grendel / BR case size, the more convinced I've become that they're very primer sensitive. Once you find the magic load, stick with that primer (and preferably that production lot too) for the rest of the barrel's life when loading that bullet / powder grade / charge weight. Not an easy or simple matter of course when you have trouble finding any primer for sale, let alone one make and model.
I'd wondered if this was just me, but when I first acquired a Grendel chambered rifle and researched 'pet loads' its inventor and champion Bill Alexander, who has probably tested more loads and fired 6.5G rounds, in different platforms made the point too. He recommended a small number of bullet / powder choices to get started, then added (and stressed too) that once an apparently good charge weight was found, finish off by trying it with every primer you can lay hands on as this frequently provides further improvements. I'm now convinced that it applies to most or all smaller cartridges.
I've also found that 223 needs a lot of conditioning with 'foulers' / sighters before MVs settle fully. My first couple of F/TR barrels - 6-groove Kiwi True-Flites - were hopeless for the first half dozen rounds or so even at shortish distances. My current barrel, a full F-weight Benchmark seems much better in short-range group tests with the group tightening after a single fouler, but even so I've found it takes several rounds to reduce velocity spreads. I've also found over the years that taking a break of just a few minutes for any reason in a not particularly long string (<20 rounds) for barrel cooling or other reasons, will often see a single MV reading well out of the distribution range on restarting, usually low. This has applied not just to 223, but also SP 308 loads.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
Have you listened to Brian Litz and Emil Praslick series of podcasts on “No BS BC”? They go through all of the things we do to try and improve consistency in handloads and conduct tests to show what the effects of the different practices are in target. Some would raise their eyebrows at some of these findings but they are backed with data from a couple of pretty good trigger pullers.
If you follow a routine of measuring,weighing, and sorting brass bullets and primers and drying your powder and you feel more comfortable doing all that then keep doing it. Just realize that in the final measure on target or across the chronograph may or may not actually be impacted by our OCD.
If you follow a routine of measuring,weighing, and sorting brass bullets and primers and drying your powder and you feel more comfortable doing all that then keep doing it. Just realize that in the final measure on target or across the chronograph may or may not actually be impacted by our OCD.
Not podcasts in my case as a techie dinosaur, but in his excellent 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting' books. I asked recently if Vol III is coming soon and got a 'watch this space' sort of reply. Vol. II tests finished on a partial short test series of the effects of neck/shoulder annealing with an AMP device on ES/SD in 223 and other cartridges, and I hope we're going to get a full test report in Vol III.
On the basis of AB's limited testing, adherents of the fashionable consistent neck-tension is paramount / accurate annealing is a boon school of thought would be disappointed.
At this stage in my life, nearly every decision must be made with cost in mind. Except for two fine examples (one full custom, one exceptional factory rig), the rifles I load for could be bought off the new rack at your local farm & fleet or the used rack at your local gun shop.
I’m meticulous with my hand loads. Always have been. So primer seating, brass prep, powder charges, case sizing, die setup and bullet seating are precise and methodical.
Five years ago I was introduced to neck turning (for uniforming purposes, when necessary), annealing and the Lee “Factory Crimp Die” That is when everything really started to perform for me. Bigger bores shot better, medium bores were improved, but the 223, 222, 204 were radically transformed.
I don’t shoot over a chronograph and I’m not a ballistician, so nothing scientific to present here, but those small bores went from meeting expectations to exceptional overnight, and they’ve given up no ground in the years since.
What exactly am I trying to say here? That I’ve found neck tension to be preeminent in producing results well down range in the tiny cartridges.
I long for the day when I’ll have the opportunity to try different primer lots and makes for my favorite loads. I think we all look forward to those supplies.
I’m meticulous with my hand loads. Always have been. So primer seating, brass prep, powder charges, case sizing, die setup and bullet seating are precise and methodical.
Five years ago I was introduced to neck turning (for uniforming purposes, when necessary), annealing and the Lee “Factory Crimp Die” That is when everything really started to perform for me. Bigger bores shot better, medium bores were improved, but the 223, 222, 204 were radically transformed.
I don’t shoot over a chronograph and I’m not a ballistician, so nothing scientific to present here, but those small bores went from meeting expectations to exceptional overnight, and they’ve given up no ground in the years since.
What exactly am I trying to say here? That I’ve found neck tension to be preeminent in producing results well down range in the tiny cartridges.
I long for the day when I’ll have the opportunity to try different primer lots and makes for my favorite loads. I think we all look forward to those supplies.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I’ve tested bullets from 52 to 80’s with various powders, ball and stick. The variable (with all things brass prep being equal) were RE-15 & Tula 556M primers, SD’s 5 and 6 were the norm with 69 through 80 grainers. The Tula 556M primer gets my Dasher’s SD’s below 6, again with Norma 203B, which is basically RE-15.
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