Damsel needs advice-what rifle is suitable for long distance competitive shooting?

[Ironman308]

You may want to read this thread For some insight.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/223-ftr-with-factory-ammo.3952020/

 

[Konrad.INc]

Keep it simple with reloading too. You can wrap up 3K$ with all the reloading goodies in just a blink of your eye. A lot of people will call me crazy but I’m still using the same RCBS Rock Chucker II press that I started with 15 years ago. It makes straight ammo so that’s all that matters. My runout never runs more than .003”. The biggest problem with reloading is it doesn’t seem like one company makes the best of everything…..so you either buy a kit and live with the mediocre stuff or buy individual pieces. The main stuff you need to get started reloading (off the top of my head) are:
Press= RCBS rock Chucker II, Hornady, Redding are all fine, there are high end presses but they just don’t buy you much.
Dies=just start with 50$ regular full length diefrom RCBS, Hornady, Redding, (Whidden bushing dies are probably the best but not needed to get started)
Shell holders= Lee shell holders work fine
Powder measure and a scale= two tools that go together, I think we have advanced enough to where the Lyman, RCBS or Hornady electric powder dispenser and scale combos are good enough. (An Autotrickler V3 or V4 with an A&D scale is what you really want but that’s 950$)
Powder funnel= Lyman makes a nice one with interchangeable tips
Priming tool= find one you like, I used lee hand primers for a long time but I don’t like their new ones. It’s only seating a primer….no big deal.
Case cleaner= stick with corncob media and a vibratory dry cleaner, I use a Lyman cleaner and it’s worked for years. I know there is fancier stuff out there but you just don’t need it.
Case lube= Hornady one shot spray lube is my new favorite
Case trimmer = a powered Giraud is what you really want but one of the hand powered ones from RCBS, Hornady etc are all the same. I like the tri way cutters from RCBS in their hand trimmer.
Calipers= a good set of dial or electric calipers. RCBS, Hornady and a few others make them….generally speaking they aren’t that good (mititoyo is what you want)

It really doesn’t take much to make better ammo than factory. But again, don’t go crazy spending money on stuff because it’s just not buying you much. You could go out and buy a 500$ Reloading starter kit from RCBS, Hornady or others and a 50$ set of dies and shoot master scores with it….even for Fclass.

At the end of the day, better shooting is worth more than anything else. The harsh reality is 99% of the points you drop in any match are due to shooter error (bad wind call, sight alignment, trigger control, muscling the gun, too much shoulder pressure, too little shoulder pressure). The only way to shoot better is to shoot more, we all reload because it makes it affordable to shoot more (and we’re probably all a little OCD). Just get out and shoot often and shoot a lot. We shoot 600yd practice 2-3 saturdays a month with matches in between. I always try to shoot a full 88 shot match at every practice.

 

[DocCarbon]

Just MY $0.02 worth of info ; Determine the class of shooting #1 , #2 , Buy a Built Factory or custom Rifle in the caliber you can handle ( Be sure the lop is correct for You ,aka IF the stock fits You ?). #3 Buy Match ammo ( After shooting several boxes of barrel fodder aka run of the mill bargain ammo ) #4 actually take the Rifle to a range and print paper ( Shoot targets ) so as to determine IF YOU wish to proceed further ?.
#5 Building ammunition WON'T save you money ,what it will do is allow you to refine ammunition for Your Rifle . Lastly remember YOU'RE MAKING the ammunition ,it's TIME consuming components are costly and sometime difficult to acquire ( especially now days ) and setting up is also COSTLY these days !.

The days of 5lb. of powder which came in brown paper bags for $2.20 ,No longer come in paper bags ,as their now History .

I'm certain if You were to show up at a range with bench rest shooters and asked them nicely ,they'd all be willing to allow you a couple of shots from their Rifles ,so YOU could determine WHICH caliber is too Your liking . Fellow shooters will lend you stuff out of their own box during a match , just to turn around and watch you beat them and they'll smile the entire time its happening . Yep some of the nicest competitive people ,You are likely to ever meet .

 

[expiper]

amos-sets-600-yard-record-with-universal-benchrest-rifle

 

[jobhopper66]

^^^^Your story was a great read and I am very happy you posted the link to it.

 

[jelenko]

So, I am very late to this discussion. I would like to suggest for your consideration 'cross the course' competition. We shoot four stages - two a 2 hundred, one at 300 and one at 600. We start off with offhand and sitting, then 'rapid' fire at 300 and, finally, slow fire at 600. All stages except off hand allow a sling. We shoot at targets with 1.5 and 1 MOA x rings and 2.5 and 2 MOA 10 rings. The challenge is doing it with no bipod or rest.

If you joined the National Match Competition forum, you could learn more about this discipline and find mentors in your area. The forum is at: http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/ It is closed to the public - i.e., you have to sign up to see the content.

What I like about 'cross the course' is that there are four different positions to learn. While we do not run and gun, there is a non trivial physical dimension.

 

[Sandstorm]

@expiper
Roger you been at this game a while...thanks for posting.

 

[linekin]

I've found the key to getting the most answers to a question.
"Damsel needs" sure has brought alot of you out of the bushes!!!

Keith

 

[Tori.F]

Just MY $0.02 worth of info ; Determine the class of shooting #1 , #2 , Buy a Built Factory or custom Rifle in the caliber you can handle ( Be sure the lop is correct for You ,aka IF the stock fits You ?). #3 Buy Match ammo ( After shooting several boxes of barrel fodder aka run of the mill bargain ammo ) #4 actually take the Rifle to a range and print paper ( Shoot targets ) so as to determine IF YOU wish to proceed further ?.
#5 Building ammunition WON'T save you money ,what it will do is allow you to refine ammunition for Your Rifle . Lastly remember YOU'RE MAKING the ammunition ,it's TIME consuming components are costly and sometime difficult to acquire ( especially now days ) and setting up is also COSTLY these days !.

The days of 5lb. of powder which came in brown paper bags for $2.20 ,No longer come in paper bags ,as their now History .

I'm certain if You were to show up at a range with bench rest shooters and asked them nicely ,they'd all be willing to allow you a couple of shots from their Rifles ,so YOU could determine WHICH caliber is too Your liking . Fellow shooters will lend you stuff out of their own box during a match , just to turn around and watch you beat them and they'll smile the entire time its happening . Yep some of the nicest competitive people ,You are likely to ever meet .

Hey! Thanks a bunch for your advice. I've got a couple people on here that live close and are willing to show me a few different rifles. Yes, a lot of them are super kind and willing to lend their advice. I'll take you 2 cents and I appreciate it.

 

[Tori.F]

I've found the key to getting the most answers to a question.
"Damsel needs" sure has brought alot of you out of the bushes!!!

Keith

Keith,

I've found the key to getting the most answers to a question.
"Damsel needs" sure has brought alot of you out of the bushes!!!

Keith

Keith,

How about I trade you my marketing advertising skills for your shooting/firearms skills lol.

In all seriousness though, I have gotten the best insight, the best knowledge, and met some great people who live near me and are going to show me the logistics and ins and outs.

I have learned a lot!

 

[Dgd6mm]

Keith,

Keith,

How about I trade you my marketing advertising skills for your shooting/firearms skills lol.

In all seriousness though, I have gotten the best insight, the best knowledge, and met some great people who live near me and are going to show me the logistics and ins and outs.

I have learned a lot!

You'll do well and you'll go far.

 

[Tori.F]

You'll do well and you'll go far.

Thank you sir!

 

[Tori.F]

@expiper
Roger you been at this game a while...thanks for posting.

Great insight from him.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks again for your insight. I have met a lot of helpful people on here and even better, there are a handful that live real close to me that are offering their help. P.S. everyone seems to love the Savage rifle for me. I will probably go with that one or a Tikka! Thanks again!

When you first started this thread, I wasn't even thinking of the Tikka. A Tikka in .223 Rem would also be an excellent choice, and they can also flat out shoot straight from the box. You wouldn't go wrong with either one.

 

[Tori.F]

When you first started this thread, I wasn't even thinking of the Tikka. A Tikka in .223 Rem would also be an excellent choice, and they can also flat out shoot straight from the box. You wouldn't

Perfect! I will message you tomorrow with a few questions about about the Tikka. Thank you!

 

[Tori.F]

amos-sets-600-yard-record-with-universal-benchrest-rifle

Great story, pretty impressive!

 

[Tori.F]

To repeat because it makes sense, check NSSF and NRA and others for matches within a reasonable driving distance to you in Iowa. Join any Facebook groups associated with shooting in your part of the country. Attend multiple matches, ask to handle and even shoot a variety of rifles. Make a special effort for Appleseed matches and other particularly friendly to newcomer groups. It doesn't make much sense to tool up for a thousand yard bench rest match and then be forced to drive to Pennsylvania to shoot a match. Over the course or high power is often a good introduction because there can be a choice of matches and introductory equipment is affordable. The various books from Precision Shooting can be useful but not out of print and so pricey. Interlibrary loan is a good idea.

Hey there! Could you please recommend me a good book, perhaps one of which has helped you on your venture to become more efficient at shooting? You mentioned various books about Precision Shooting; however, I don't know what to get!

 

[darkangel_r2]

@DocCarbon @expiper @darkangel_r2 @Ned Ludd @Dgd6mm @Ironman308 @SPJ @MGYSGT @Papa Charlie @big john 5394 @shooterk @Konrad.INc


How about a Bergara B14 HMR .308 to use in an F/TR match? Bergara is a top favorite of mine, their precision-made barrels have long been revered for their accuracy, which makes them great for target shooting. I have read they have a stronger bolt stop too. They are well made rifles, but will the shorter barrel limit the .308's range? I know the .308 does not have the best ballistics, but I feel it is best for learning about drop/wind drift ect.

In contrast to the Savage 12F, the Bergara has adjustable cheek pads and LOP, the Savage does not have either of those? Both are different in stock and caliber difference. I know a couple of you recommended a Savage and a Tikka model but wanted to know about the Bergara as well.

Anyways, is the Bergara B14 HMR .308 a good choice for someone who wants to "dip their toes" into precision rifle competitions?

Thank you for all of yall's insightful instruction, guidance and suggestions. I have met some great folks on here who live near me in Iowa that have offered to help guide me down this path, pertaining to matches, equipment, rules, ranges for practice, ect., which will help tremendously.

I don't believe F-TR allows brakes so if you intend to shoot 308 for FTR you are going to want a rifle with glass, bipod, all attachments to be in near that 18 lb limit to reduce your felt recoil and improve shootability. This will likely be best achieved by an aftermarket stock and barrel. The b14 hmr with with glass and a pod probably weighs under 14 lbs.

With 223 you can get away with a much lighter rig and less expensive parts.

PRS is another shooting sport that allows you to be far more competitive with factory ammo than others. plenty of ready made prs rigs available now too.

Whatever you decide get a threaded muzzle (large diameter threads, keep meat around the crown) and put a tuner on it. That can make factory ammo much more competitive.

 

[Tori.F]

I don't believe F-TR allows brakes so if you intend to shoot 308 for FTR you are going to want a rifle with glass, bipod, all attachments to be in near that 18 lb limit to reduce your felt recoil and improve shootability. This will likely be best achieved by an aftermarket stock and barrel. The b14 hmr with with glass and a pod probably weighs under 14 lbs.

With 223 you can get away with a much lighter rig and less expensive parts.

PRS is another shooting sport that allows you to be far more competitive with factory ammo than others. plenty of ready made prs rigs available now too.

Whatever you decide get a threaded muzzle (large diameter threads, keep meat around the crown) and put a tuner on it. That can make factory ammo much more competitive.

Gotcha thanks!

 

[Ned Ludd]

With a commercial rifle, it's also important to consider the available barrel twist rates and lengths. For example, the .223 Rem Tikka variants will come with a twist rate of 1:8" and a maximum length of 23.7". The Bergara .308 Win has a 20" barrel with a twist rate of 1:10". The Savage 12 F/TR rifle comes with a 30" 1:7" twist barrel in .223 Rem, and a 30" 1:12" twist barrel in .308 Win. Ideally, I would want a barrel length of no less than 26" (28"-30" would be preferable), and twist rates of 1:7" for a .223 Rem, and 1:11" or 1:10" for a .308. These are combinations that may not be available from the various manufacturers on your list. In fact, the Savage 12 F/TR is the only rifle from these three manufacturers that comes with a 30" barrel and a suitable twist rate for the relatively long (heavy) bullets that F-TR shooters tend to prefer. The good news is that once the original barrel has been shot out, you can have it replaced with whatever you want.

Nonetheless, barrel lengths and twist rates are worth thinking about so you can get the most of of the rifle as it first comes out of the box. As a general rule of thumb, a twist rate of 1:8" in a .223 Rem will allow you to shoot bullets up to the ~80 gr weight class (length). There are certainly those that use ~80 gr bullets out to 600 yd in midrange F-TR matches. However, most .223 shooters would prefer to use one of the longer/heavier bullets in the 85 to 95 gr weight range, due to their much higher ballistic coefficients and lesser wind deflection. A 1:8" twist barrel is not sufficient to stabilize those bullets; but a 1:7" twist is. Likewise, the longer the barrel, the greater the velocity of ammunition loaded to equal pressure will be. Velocity is secondary to the ballistic coefficient of the bullet in term of wind deflection, but a faster bullet typically means less wind deflection, so the effect of increasing velocity by using a longer barrel is not zero. Wind deflection causes more dropped/lost points in F-TR than pretty much all other sources combined. In that context, shooters using a .223 Rem are already at a slight disadvantage when competing against shooters using a .308 Win with 200+ gr bullets that offer noticeably greater resistance to wind deflection, so choosing a rifle with a barrel capable of handling the longest/heaviest bullets available is something to think about.

The caveat to all this is that it is based on the assumption that you will eventually reload your own ammunition, as the longest/heaviest bullet widely available in commercial .223 Rem ammunition is the 77 gr Sierra Matchking. I have one custom .223 Rem rifle I had built as sort of a "practice" gun. It has a 26" 7-twist barrel. Although I have developed handloads for it with an ~80 gr bullet, this particular rifle also absolutely loves Federal Gold Medal Match 77 gr commercial ammunition and I have used it numerous times at 600 yd for practice purposes. The key here is that with the relatively light 77 gr bullet, even a custom precision rifle capable of shooting quarter MOA groups at 100 yd turns into a precision shotgun at 600 yd when the wind comes up. One way to view the use of light bullets in a .223 Rem would be that they will force the shooter to improve their wind-reading techniques, and this is a fair interpretation. However, another possibility is that someone just starting out may become so frustrated trying to compete with a setup that is so much more sensitive to wind conditions than what their competitors might be using that they quit the sport. Making the most informed choice now could help spare you much of that frustration.

I have to tell you that I really don't like getting so far "down in the weeds" in these posts with respect to tiny little details for someone just starting down the F-Class road. It's too easy to overwhelm someone trying to make a good choice with their first precision rifle. Nonetheless, some of these details are important in the context of purchasing a commercial rifle because it is unlikely that you will ever find one in an F-TR caliber that would meet every single one of the criteria that someone such as myself might consider essential. In that regard, they really aren't "unimportant". Another example of this would be the rifle stock. Some of the potential rifle choices that have been tossed around in this thread have a steeply angled toe (the underside/bottom edge of the rifle buttstock that rides across the rear bag), which is also undesirable, IMO. There are things that can be done to lessen a steeply angled toe such as using a bag-rider, but the less you have to do to whatever rifle you choose to make it suitable for competing the better. There are also other things to consider as well, such as the type of bipod/rear bag you want to start with and how the bipod attaches to it. All of the chosen accessories cost money, in some cases, a LOT of money, and so it is critical that they are compatible.

You mentioned that you have found someone in your area that is willing to help you with all of this. That is probably your best bet at this time, so that you don't get too far down in the weeds worrying about all the details. You really just want a rifle that will allow you to get started competing and having fun with the sport. With a little forethought and advice, I'm sure you will find one that suits your specific needs, and that can continue to serve you well as you gain more experience in F-Class. So really, your very best resource is the person(s) in your area that are going to help you. You will receive enough information from long-winded individuals such as myself at shooting forums to make your head twirl around like a top. Certainly digest what you can, but rely most on the advice of the people helping you directly. If you remember nothing else from what I and others have suggested in this thread, remember this: having fun is what keeps you coming back. Don't ever forget that this is supposed to be fun, and the rest will take care of itself.