Summarize your load development

[Dave M.]

Are you guys fire forming Dasher brass here ?

Mine was a 5 shot group with a cross wind at 200 yards for a .257 moa group.

 

[garandman]

Mine was a 5 shot group with a cross wind at 200 yards for a .257 moa group.

What was your load ? How many rds on bbl ?

 

[garandman]

That or hydro form yourself i suppose.

Howzat work ??

 

[garandman]

How sharp are your shoulders getting formed ?
I use 29.5 gr of varget just on my 6 Ackley

In the 6mm & wildcats forum I posted some pics.... Stan Taylor at Douglas Barrels told me to set the primer pockets with a light charge...

 

[garandman]

Hydro form dies ..add water and smack um with a mallet .no personal experience just camp fire talking with the fellas. Those shoulders look pretty good.

Im on the steep part of the learning curve, here...

 

[Dave M.]

What was your load ? How many rds on bbl ?

33.1g of RL-15 with a CBTO of 1.817” (about 0.022” past touching lands) Berger 105g VLD target. 3 thou neck tension.

 

[JFrank]

Im on the steep part of the learning curve, here...

Me too

 

[garandman]

33.1g of RL-15 with a CBTO of 1.817” (about 0.022” past touching lands) Berger 105g VLD target. 3 thou neck tension.

Im running 105 VLDs also.... cant find any Berger hybrids. I understand these Dashers like 2b jammed... tho 22/000s seems like alot.. I'll try summa yours in my load development.

 

[AntiMedic]

In this discussion, we need clarification of the term "Jam" which is used inconsistently by a lot of people. Some guys use "jam" to mean the furthest seating point before bullet set-back occurs. Other guys say "jam" when they may be somewhere between first touch and max. And "full jam" can really vary depending on the way the measurement is performed and your neck tension.

As the baseline for seating into the lands, please refer to seating in thousandths beyond "first touch". The "first touch" measurement is repeatable, is what you can find with readily available tools, and is meaningful across multiple cartridge types, and bullet types, and reader personalities.

Reference my jam point is using the bolt to seat the bullet and taking my measurement, repeat, average etc. 2.1830 BTO measurement. From there back off 0.020 and go from there. It is dependent on neck tension and I used the neck tension I run. Comparing seating depth is a wide variable as it defers from rifle to rifle. It is merely a reference for all but the actual shooter. I do agree with you on clarification or standardization of terms.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Do you consider seating depth changes a harmonic adjustment or combustion fine tuning ?

All I know is that seating depth seems to be very absolute and can effect the group as much or more than the powder charge.

For every bullet there is a sweet spot or even a dead spot or range where the groups are smallest. The spot will also have a range where the depth is not as critical. Very much behaving as a node.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Bradley
I recall discussing Berger 108's seating on a thread a couple of years ago where a very definitive set of groups appeared and remained throughout the life of the barrel, with the shapes being fairly consistent the size did not increase or decrease at any noteworthy rate without a powder adjustment. Looking back I believe that my bullet hold at the time had to have been optimum to enjoy that consistency.
For myself and im normally the minority or as Dusty would say ( black sheep) I feel that seating is more of a harmonic adjustment as I really don't see much of a fps variance beyond white noise of the chronograph rather fine tuning of exit timing.

Again im just a ham and egger and much is interpretation, perhaps others may chime in with some additional clairity.

Alex Wheeler said he thought of the bullet depth as a tuner position. That makes sense to me. Although. I have found there is a RANGE where most bullets shoot. We want to avoid the depth that has a narrow node. We want to find the depth that still shoots well on either side of that depth.

 

[JFrank]

Alex Wheeler said he thought of the bullet depth as a tuner position. That makes sense to me. Although. I have found there is a RANGE where most bullets shoot. We want to avoid the depth that has a narrow node. We want to find the depth that still shoots well on either side of that depth.

At 1000 yards our tune window for seating can be as small as .001 only testing at that distance will determine that exact depth. At reduced distances the window seems larger and a bit more forgiving to the extent of rifles shooting magazine length rounds accurately.

 

[urbanrifleman]

At 1000 yards our tune window for seating can be as small as .001 only testing at that distance will determine that exact depth. At reduced distances the window seems larger and a bit more forgiving to the extent of rifles shooting magazine length rounds accurately.

Yah, I know. I see the threads describing that process. From my observation, I really cannot compare what 1000 yard benchrest shooters do to any other practical shooting disciplines. Most bullets will not hold a .001" seating depth tolerance. 1000 yard benchrest shooting for group is a whole other thing.

There is a very good Erik Cortina video where he describes a very similar process as what I described. He also spoke of the depth range that shoots well, and you want to find that. He also said that it has nothing to do with the lands. I think it was called Chasing the Lands is Stupid or something like that.

 

[INTJ]

Why not seating depth first?

Seating depth will change pressure = change velocity. Finding the powder charge that puts you in the node after the depth is set seems more natural to me.

I have no data to support the above claim - it's just a thought process.

When we are working with a familiar cartridge and we have known loads. sometimes seating depth first is a good option. Especially when using lathe turned bullets that might shoot anywhere between .020 off and .200 off.

When we are less familiar with a cartridge or powder or bucket, powder charge first is usually the way to go.

 

[INTJ]

Yah, I know. I see the threads describing that process. From my observation, I really cannot compare what 1000 yard benchrest shooters do to any other practical shooting disciplines. Most bullets will not hold a .001" seating depth tolerance. 1000 yard benchrest shooting for group is a whole other thing.

In terms of 1000 yd BR full competition mode, probably not. Then again, each shooting discipline has its own unique requirements.

However, the way we find loads and keep them in tune is very applicable. There just isn't a better way in terms of rounds expended vs loads found than to shoot a round robin ladder at 600 or 1000 yds and look for overlap. It takes out the lucky group shot in a good condition, and it takes out the unlucky group as well.

I really had to think through this to understand it. Like @garandman mentioned it didn't seem to work the first time I tried it, but now, in 12 rounds I can evaluate four loads and know with certainty which load will shoot the smallest. This method takes out the lucky/unlucky groups due to changing conditions.

The approach works well for other types of shooting as well, it's just all of the sorting and ultra fine tuning is not needed.

I am not sure how well the round robin tuning ladder works at closer ranges. It doesn't with BR rifles because we need to tune at competition distance. I need to try it with a hunting rifle....

 

[Stan Taylor]

Garand Man will probably chime in before long he probably just got out of church myself I got to make a run to Walmart can you get me some more popcorn this is really getting good.

 

[garandman]

@Stan Taylor. I dont know nuthin' bout nuthin'

@INTJ I honestly cant see it makes any real diff whether ya do powder or seating depth first. I've had some success doing powder first. But.... Im doing seating depth first for this buiild.

 

[INTJ]

@Stan Taylor. I dont know nuthin' bout nuthin'

@INTJ I honestly cant see it makes any real diff whether ya do powder or seating depth first. I've had some success doing powder first. But.... Im doing seating depth first for this buiild.

Yeah I don't disagree on powder, but the round robin tuning ladder tuning at long range is the magic for finding good loads.

 

[garandman]

Yeah I don't disagree on powder, but the round robin tuning ladder tuning at long range is the magic for finding good loads.

Got a link that will describe in detail the method?

And as I noted above what really helps me is when people tell me *why* something works , not just that it works and then tell me to do it or then dog me for not just trusting them.

When people can tell me why it works is what persuades me. So… persuade me.

 

[INTJ]

Got a link that will describe in detail the method?

And as I noted above what really helps me is when people tell me *why* something works , not just that it works and then tell me to do it or then dog me for not just trusting them.

When people can tell me why it works is what persuades me. So… persuade me.

I did explain the why--all shots to the same POI at the same time eliminates groups that are good/bad due to changing conditions. That is a HUGE deal. Conditions can easily overwhelm the perfect load. I'll expound more.

When you shoot a series of groups at long range, you don't know if it the good or bad groups are from your load or the conditions. One way some get around that is to shoot LOTS of groups in varying conditions. It's easy to burn up 1/3 of the barrel life developing loads that way, at least if you really want BR quality groups. That is how I used to tune my BR rifles.

A much better way is to shoot the round-robin ladder. You load up three rounds of each charge/seating depth you want to test. You color the tips of the bullets of each different load. For example: Load 1, bare bullets, Load 2, Red bullets, Load 3 Green bullets, Load 4, Yellow bullets. You also load up some sighter rounds to make sure you are centered on paper.

When at the range you get centered on paper, then shoot your 12 test rounds. You shoot one shot from load one, one from load two, one from load three, and one from load four. Then you repeat that twice. Then you go to then target and connect the colors. Looks like this, and this isn't an exceptional ladder. I was testing brass. We use these ladders to test powder charges, seating depths, neck tension, primers, etc.



The reason we should shoot at the distance we want to compete/hunt is doing so accounts for other variables that we may not be aware of. Things like positive compensation, bullet consistency, load consistency etc. For example, the load that shoots best at 300 or 600 yds often doesn't shoot well at 1000 yds.

Now theory is fine, but the only way to know for sure is to thoroughly test it and see if it works--even if you don't completely understand the theory. When I started using the round robin tuning ladder at 1000 yds I significantly cut the amount load development rounds I needed and more importantly, my 1000 yd groups shrunk significantly.

Now when it comes to a hunting rifle, finding a load at 100 yds and then testing at longer ranges works well. My job is in fact doing that. When I find a .5 MOA 100 yd group it's no issue to be able to make center of target hits at 1100 yds. (To be honest, a .75 MOA 100 yd load would do that.) Out to 500-600 yds a drop chart works pretty, beyond that a Kestrel 5700 Elite, validates and tweaked as requires, works very well. That said, putting a couple shots within 3-4" of the center of a target is not remotely on the level of shooting LR BR winning groups and aggs.

You originally asked how to shoot better groups at long range. I told you how the shooting discipline that shoots the smallest groups at 600 and 1000 yds do it. This is not how most people find loads. Most do it like you do. Now if you don't want to try it this way no one will care, but you won't shoot as small as groups as you could.