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Confusion around max charge load

You just aren't going to listen, are you?
Nosler gives data min of 52.5 max 56.5 I feel most comfortable using nosler as I’m using nosler cases

I’m going to start at 54.5 going up .5 increments and see if even get pressure Signs at 56.5 if not I’ll keep going and hopefully I’ll see a node somewhere with those then I’ll start loading in .2 increments around that node
 
I agree with everyone on starting low and working up, but the better question that I have also experienced is how can there be such a difference in the load data from one company to another?
I do normally use Hodgdon data, but when I compare to other company's data, it is much different. This makes it very hard to have a warm and fuzzy about not blowing your gun!
 
I really think this is a communication issue and many are misreading what @AbeS is saying. I think he looks at that maximum load then figures out his ladder down from that to determine his starting charge. However, he starts his shooting test at the lower charge and then works up.

The risk with not starting at the minimum and picking a middle range powder charge to start is that first load may be the max and you have to stop, then take apart all the other ammo. Starting at the minimum recommend charge is almost always the safest option.
 
what you have are 4 potential hand grenades that will feed and cycle perfectly fine in your rifle next time
This comment reminds me of a home grown version of "OPERATION ELDEST SON"
I could not AGREE MORE!

From ITNJ:
"I really think this is a communication issue and many are misreading what @AbeS is saying"

I don't care what he may have meant what I do know in his ammo box is a potential nightmare.
 
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I really think this is a communication issue and many are misreading what @AbeS is saying. I think he looks at that maximum load then figures out his ladder down from that to determine his starting charge. However, he starts his shooting test at the lower charge and then works up.

The risk with not starting at the minimum and picking a middle range powder charge to start is that first load may be the max and you have to stop, then take apart all the other ammo. Starting at the minimum recommend charge is almost always the safest option.
Yes apologies for not explaining like you did
 
He said he would shoot from low charge up. There are many reasons why load data varies from source to source. Liability, type of test barrel used, bullet jacket and core material, brass manufacturer and powder lot variations and more. Try and find data on your exact bullet choice, if you cannot, start shooting at a minimum charge weight of a similar constructed bullet/weight. Loads for non lead core bullets are usually significantly different from cup and core bullets. Good luck, you may have a lot of testing ahead if the Sig ammo didn't shoot well, that at least is usually good brass.
 
He said he would shoot from low charge up. There are many reasons why load data varies from source to source. Liability, type of test barrel used, bullet jacket and core material, brass manufacturer and powder lot variations and more. Try and find data on your exact bullet choice, if you cannot, start shooting at a minimum charge weight of a similar constructed bullet/weight. Loads for non lead core bullets are usually significantly different from cup and core bullets. Good luck, you may have a lot of testing ahead if the Sig ammo didn't shoot well, that at least is usually good brass.
This is going to be a mute discussion if he doesn't have small base dies anyway. John
 
AbeS , The 30-06 BAR is a little fussy compared to a bolt gun. I don't own one myself, but I have helped do the load work-up for more than six or seven of them for friends (bosses) who were okay with loading but not as good at finding their recipe. They were busy folks, good hunters and decent shots, but since I worked for them it was better to have me get them their load and make their first batch so they had a good starting point.

You will want to think of this rig in similar fashion as you would a Garand in that only a subset of bullets and powders will satisfy both the action's requirements as well as your accuracy demands. The gun's literature will typically say it is rated for any SAAMI spec commercial ammo, but that doesn't mean it will make you or the gun happy.

I will assume you understand the issues surrounding terminal performance at the distances you plan to hunt and have selected that bullet style and weight based on your plans. Since opinions are free and some are worth what you paid for them... I would keep this well under 500 yards, and at those distances any decent 150 to 165 will kill anything in North America when placed where it belongs. This is a ten twist, but I still won't recommend above a 175 to avoid beating up the action. In my opinion, the whole point of the action is to take the edge off the recoil and offer a good follow up shot. Opting for the higher recoil ammo isn't good for either you or the gun.

I will advise you to worry less about the case brand and more about the bullet and powder. You will get at least four cycles from just about any brass, but how many more depends on the rest of the discussion with respect to pressure. That is not to say you should accept bottom of the barrel brass, but try and select brass that is easy to find and find in quantity to avoid having to rebalance your recipe due to batch changes. This is kind of a silent requirement for accepting a semi-auto in your life. Don't count on very many cycles on the brass, so just make sure it isn't absolute junk to start with.

Your Browning may or may not come with their HOTS tuner on the muzzle. If it did, that tuner is very useful for tuning to the ammo batch and temperature conditions. While load development usually happens throughout the year, the hunting is generally during much colder weather and the velocity can drop enough to take you out of the node. The HOTS is typically used to account for that drop and their system works very well.

I will recommend that if at all possible, get a wide selection of 30-06 ammo that represents a search for the bullet weight and speed range the gun will like. Most of the ones I have worked on liked the 165 SGK or similar, but the key was to avoid the higher pressure to avoid tearing up the brass and action with excess pressure, but enough margin to keep the action working in cold weather.

Learn to clean the chamber and action, and how to lubricate the gun so it won't fail to cycle when cold. I recommend you work only with synthetic lubricants designed for cold weather. If you don't have a favorite, try something like Slip 2000 EWL. More is not always better in cold weather, but dry won't help either.

A good starting point is to grab some of the commercial Garand ammo first, and then test commercial hunting loads. Hedge your bets if you don't have the HOTS by including samples from 150 to 180 grains. Some of these plain 10 twist 22" barrels were well under an MOA with certain bullets, and a fat two minutes with others. Find out what she likes first, then aim your load development at a clone or similar recipe. You can know the bullets they use, but it is often difficult to get the information on what powder they used. Chronograph the loads it likes so you have something to work with when you do your clone.

Learn to watch the ejection pattern. Load from weak to strong and study the ejection to learn to leave margin for cold weather, but don't beat up the action trying to get velocity at the expense of reliability.

Learning to load at the range provides benefits for the trouble. You can load most of the low end samples at home, and only continue to climb when the signs are good while stopping as you see the limits.

I know you can't just go to a good LGS and find a selection of 30-06 hunting ammo to try these days. But if at all possible look for some better name brand Garand loads or some Federal GMM ammo to get a feel for the rig and what it likes or hates, then aim your load development based on those samples. Good luck.
 
Here is a great example of a few folks not carefully reading what the OP posted and turning this thread into a circus. I'll reiterate, AbeS fires his loaded test rounds from lowest to highest, exactly as he should be doing. All he was basically asking is why the various reloading manuals exhibit such disparity in their "MAX" loads. Regardless of who the reloader is, they have to use some method for determining how high to go with charge weight when setting up a powder test. AbeS's method is simply to use the MAX value from a reloading manual as his absolute highest charge weight in a test. He starts shooting the test rounds with the lowest charge weights and works up, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it this way. Nothing.

Abe - Reloading manuals have no way of knowing what brand of brass you're using (i.e. internal case volume), the burn rate of the specific Lot # of powder you're using, the brisance of the primer you're using, and maybe a few more variables that are not coming to me off the top of my head. It is also necessary to factor in the notion that some reloading manuals may just be generally more conservative with their published loads than others. Because of these factors, it is possible to find published loads in different manuals where both the starting and MAX charge weights are NOT the same, even if there is some overlap in the middle. As long as there are different charge weight values published in different reloading manuals, your approach of looking for a MAX load as your upper limit may cause you to encounter this issue.

My suggestion would be to use a slightly different approach; i.e. buy/obtain yourself some reloading software. I use QuickLoad (top link), but there is also GRTools that some members here at A.S. favor (2nd link).



Regardless of which you use, what these programs offer are a very wide range of preset, selectable cartridge, bullet, and powder files. Some of the variables, such as powder burn rate, are user-adjustable, to allow the user account for Lot-to-Lot variation in powder, temperature, different primers, etc. Basically, to get started one needs to input a series of measurements from their actual loaded rounds (i.e. bullet length, barrel length, COAL, case length, case volume, etc.). Using a preset powder burn rate for the powder selected from the menu, the program will provide outputs for a given charge weight such as cartridge fill ratio, pressure, barrel time, and velocity. Because the programs contain a only single preset powder file for any given powder, the initial program output values may or may not be close to the real-world values. That is because of Lot-to-Lot powder variation, primer brisance, case volumes, etc. All one need do is to use a suitably reduced load (for safety reasons), then go out and determine actual velocity for a few loaded rounds. Once back home, the user can then adjust the program for actual temperature, then change the preset powder burn rate value until the predicted velocity matches the actual recorded average velocity. I refer to that process as "calibrating" the reloading program to a specific setup. Once the program has been calibrated to a given setup, the predicted responses (outputs) are usually quite good.

I mention this here not only to bring the innate value of these reloading programs to your attention, but also because you could actually do something similar without actually having one of the programs. For example, you pick a charge weight common to the various reloading manuals you have for your specific cartridge/bullet weight/powder combination, but making sure that the selected charge weight is at the low end of the range. You load up a few rounds, then determine actual average velocity from those loaded rounds. Once back at home, it should be fairly easy to determine if your actual real-world velocity results line up with the values reported in one manual versus another. This is a "seat of the pants" kind of approach, but one that would very likely allow you to rule out using the load data published in some of the manuals that clearly did not match up well with your actual test loads and therefore might be reporting MAX loads that are too hot. The only real downside to this approach is that it does require loading few rounds and making one extra trip to the range before actually starting the load development. Because of the way you already do your testing, it may not offer any real advantage to you other than peace of mind if some of the MAX values reported in your manuals seem excessively high. With the reloading software, this calibration step is essential for good results. In any event, best of luck with the process and give those reloading programs a look. Most of the people that have them find them to be extremely useful.
 
The risk with not starting at the minimum and picking a middle range powder charge to start is that first load may be the max and you have to stop, then take apart all the other ammo. Starting at the minimum recommend charge is almost always the safest option.

You can run into problems starting with low end charges, particularly if the load data is conservative compared to other (like Hodgdon which is hotter).

In a gun like the Swedish Mauser that has a tight twist, a preference for slow powders, and a lot of free bore, minimum starting charges can produce sooty cartridges, dented shoulders, blown primers, and stuck bolts. Aka: SEE.

Ask me how I know.

I generally make my best guess and start just below the middle of the test range. I approach both ends of the spectrum with care at this point.
 
Hey - this may be a silly question...but why the 175SMK in a BAR? What purpose to you intend the rifle for - surely not precision shooting?
If you intend to use the rifle for hunting ( I'm guessing), there are better bullets out there. I shoot my '06 Mauser/ Parker Hale Safari with 165 Hornady's. Nothing lives long.(59.2g H4350). yep - started low and worked up.
 
You can run into problems starting with low end charges, particularly if the load data is conservative compared to other (like Hodgdon which is hotter).

In a gun like the Swedish Mauser that has a tight twist, a preference for slow powders, and a lot of free bore, minimum starting charges can produce sooty cartridges, dented shoulders, blown primers, and stuck bolts. Aka: SEE.

Ask me how I know.

I generally make my best guess and start just below the middle of the test range. I approach both ends of the spectrum with care at this point.

Yes, too low can also be a problem. It usually happens when there isn't enough powder to keep the charge full at the base of the case. If there is airspace across the top of the powder charge then too much can ignite at once causing big pressure spikes.
 
AbeS , The 30-06 BAR is a little fussy compared to a bolt gun. I don't own one myself, but I have helped do the load work-up for more than six or seven of them for friends (bosses) who were okay with loading but not as good at finding their recipe. They were busy folks, good hunters and decent shots, but since I worked for them it was better to have me get them their load and make their first batch so they had a good starting point.

You will want to think of this rig in similar fashion as you would a Garand in that only a subset of bullets and powders will satisfy both the action's requirements as well as your accuracy demands. The gun's literature will typically say it is rated for any SAAMI spec commercial ammo, but that doesn't mean it will make you or the gun happy.

I will assume you understand the issues surrounding terminal performance at the distances you plan to hunt and have selected that bullet style and weight based on your plans. Since opinions are free and some are worth what you paid for them... I would keep this well under 500 yards, and at those distances any decent 150 to 165 will kill anything in North America when placed where it belongs. This is a ten twist, but I still won't recommend above a 175 to avoid beating up the action. In my opinion, the whole point of the action is to take the edge off the recoil and offer a good follow up shot. Opting for the higher recoil ammo isn't good for either you or the gun.

I will advise you to worry less about the case brand and more about the bullet and powder. You will get at least four cycles from just about any brass, but how many more depends on the rest of the discussion with respect to pressure. That is not to say you should accept bottom of the barrel brass, but try and select brass that is easy to find and find in quantity to avoid having to rebalance your recipe due to batch changes. This is kind of a silent requirement for accepting a semi-auto in your life. Don't count on very many cycles on the brass, so just make sure it isn't absolute junk to start with.

Your Browning may or may not come with their HOTS tuner on the muzzle. If it did, that tuner is very useful for tuning to the ammo batch and temperature conditions. While load development usually happens throughout the year, the hunting is generally during much colder weather and the velocity can drop enough to take you out of the node. The HOTS is typically used to account for that drop and their system works very well.

I will recommend that if at all possible, get a wide selection of 30-06 ammo that represents a search for the bullet weight and speed range the gun will like. Most of the ones I have worked on liked the 165 SGK or similar, but the key was to avoid the higher pressure to avoid tearing up the brass and action with excess pressure, but enough margin to keep the action working in cold weather.

Learn to clean the chamber and action, and how to lubricate the gun so it won't fail to cycle when cold. I recommend you work only with synthetic lubricants designed for cold weather. If you don't have a favorite, try something like Slip 2000 EWL. More is not always better in cold weather, but dry won't help either.

A good starting point is to grab some of the commercial Garand ammo first, and then test commercial hunting loads. Hedge your bets if you don't have the HOTS by including samples from 150 to 180 grains. Some of these plain 10 twist 22" barrels were well under an MOA with certain bullets, and a fat two minutes with others. Find out what she likes first, then aim your load development at a clone or similar recipe. You can know the bullets they use, but it is often difficult to get the information on what powder they used. Chronograph the loads it likes so you have something to work with when you do your clone.

Learn to watch the ejection pattern. Load from weak to strong and study the ejection to learn to leave margin for cold weather, but don't beat up the action trying to get velocity at the expense of reliability.

Learning to load at the range provides benefits for the trouble. You can load most of the low end samples at home, and only continue to climb when the signs are good while stopping as you see the limits.

I know you can't just go to a good LGS and find a selection of 30-06 hunting ammo to try these days. But if at all possible look for some better name brand Garand loads or some Federal GMM ammo to get a feel for the rig and what it likes or hates, then aim your load development based on those samples. Good luck.
This is some great info I was wondering if you have a good way getting your jam length with the bar?
 
This is some great info I was wondering if you have a good way getting your jam length with the bar?
I loaded mag length at 3.350 and it extracted fine but I have really hard time finding the actual length to into the lands
 
Hey - this may be a silly question...but why the 175SMK in a BAR? What purpose to you intend the rifle for - surely not precision shooting?
If you intend to use the rifle for hunting ( I'm guessing), there are better bullets out there. I shoot my '06 Mauser/ Parker Hale Safari with 165 Hornady's. Nothing lives long.(59.2g H4350). yep - started low and worked up.
Over time, I learned the value of getting a baseline with the best possible match load to help when debugging a rig that later uses hunting loads.

If a 30-06 doesn't perform at least decently with a 168 SMK or 175 SMK, then it means I had better understand why and also how that would affect what I am going to do with other bullet designs. I don't recommend using a Browning BAR sporting rifle with 175 SMK, except for the purpose of a baseline that can often be purchased or kept at hand for debugging.

If one of those Browning BARs showed up for troubleshooting and I didn't have the guy's hunt loads in hand, I almost always had Garand match loads at hand and knew what that rig should do with them. I hope that makes a little sense cause I am not very good at explaining or writing at times.
 
Hey - this may be a silly question...but why the 175SMK in a BAR? What purpose to you intend the rifle for - surely not precision shooting?
If you intend to use the rifle for hunting ( I'm guessing), there are better bullets out there. I shoot my '06 Mauser/ Parker Hale Safari with 165 Hornady's. Nothing lives long.(59.2g H4350). yep - started low and worked up.
I have shot with factory loads just five points down up to 550 yards and yes I get it I really do but yes I intend to shoot this rifle for groups up to 800 yards I really do believe I can and I I’m going to get it done I will post when I do and yes it’ll take some time I can’t shoot every day but I’ve done it with the 6.5 grendel built and I’m sure I can do it with the browning
 
Guys you all are being Very helpful! AbeS, just joined yesterday, he will catch on. AbeS if you don't have a Mentor...you just got 50,000 +.
Spot on Egan!….
I was going to comment earlier today but by the time I read through all the bs I decided why bother!… I just read Neds and I don’t believe I’ll read further by the way nice post Ned and also spot on!….
AbeS,
Welcome to the forum!…. There really are a great bunch of guys and as Egan mentioned 50000 mentors available!… I understand why they raised a fuss at first you kinda said it backwards but quickly replied with the correct procedure that most of us use. My suggestion would be your obviously aren’t competing with a BAR there very good rifles and have strong reliable bolt system for a semi auto rifle but I wouldn’t suggest going with a real hot load as you want it to always reliably feed and function, again if it were me I would work up until I hit pressure and back off probably a half grain. It’s a 300 yard deer rifle and the deer won’t know the difference when it gets hit with 2650 FPS or 2700 FPS . Good luck and hope to see more of you out here on the forum
Wayne
 

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