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Indicating Barrels to chamber

I have pin gauges between the other 0.001" incretments to use as spud with my 0.0001" Intrepid test indicator. I use the spider on the left side of the headstock to steer the spud parallel to the spindle bore.

bullet-tilt-reduced-jpg.1136669


from "The American Rifleman" ~ 65 years ago, and the NRA says it is ok to quote. It was some effort to scan the text and get text characters out.


"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".


None of this applies to CHAMBER tilt. Make a chamber crooked and it will shoot straight ammo amazingly accurately. Crooked ammo inserted with random orientation is inaccurate, but crooked chambers throw the bullets off center into the same tiny group.
 
This is a .338 edge chamber, the end of the free bore is about 3.174" from the back of the barrel. Then you have the even longer stuff like the 33/37XC.

I dial in the throat with a long stem as well, my chambers come out pretty damn good, but that is a whole nother level.

Your customers are very well served by your passion for perfection and the shooters on here are lucky you share it! Thank you
 
I have pin gauges between the other 0.001" incretments to use as spud with my 0.0001" Intrepid test indicator. I use the spider on the left side of the headstock to steer the spud parallel to the spindle bore.

bullet-tilt-reduced-jpg.1136669


from "The American Rifleman" ~ 65 years ago, and the NRA says it is ok to quote. It was some effort to scan the text and get text characters out.


"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".


None of this applies to CHAMBER tilt. Make a chamber crooked and it will shoot straight ammo amazingly accurately. Crooked ammo inserted with random orientation is inaccurate, but crooked chambers throw the bullets off center into the same tiny group.
I'd put very little faith in this report. Current testing does not agree.
 
Last edited:
I dont see what all the fuss is about. I just send my barels to a qualified gunsmith and let him worry about it. I just wait for the finished product and go shoot. It will either shoot or it won't depending on the burbon. And I like Stagg jr. And yes Mike Bryant has built me several
 

Checkout about minute 2 on this factory rem barrel.

zero freebore on one side l and many tens of thousands freebore in the other... seeing is believing
 
Thats a good example of a throat thats not concentric to the bore. An extreme example. I have seen it a lot in factory barrels, and even a few custom rifles. Only takes a few tenths off to see it happen.
 
Last edited:
That barrel would be an interesting "real world" example to see how it shoots despite the chamber being non-concentric (or is that "un-concentric :)) at the throat.
No way to know without background how or if (between centers) the chamber was dialed-in.

I suspect we might be surprised.
 
I remember @DaveTooley posting something about diagnosing accuracy issues that related to throats not being concentric. Hopefully he can chime in.
It would be an expensive experiment to run (purposely cutting bad chambers) to see how much it hurt accuracy. Plus to do it right you would want to reuse the same barrel to keep everything as close to equal as possible. Rather than doing that work, I think its best to just cut them as close to perfect as possible everytime.
 
I remember @DaveTooley posting something about diagnosing accuracy issues that related to throats not being concentric. Hopefully he can chime in.
It would be an expensive experiment to run (purposely cutting bad chambers) to see how much it hurt accuracy. Plus to do it right you would want to reuse the same barrel to keep everything as close to equal as possible. Rather than doing that work, I think its best to just cut them as close to perfect as possible everytime.

I'm about to own a nice lathe. I'll re-chamber some barrels that are no longer competitive but still shoot "well" - I'll report back how bad it is :)
 
Alex,
Sorry I don't have any numbers for you. I've seen a lot of shoddy work and helped to correct the process or spun up new barrels. I never shot any of the bad. Time and circumstances prevented it. Reports are some would take 2-300 rounds to remove metal pushed into the grooves from chambering before they settled down. Others just never shoot well. By that 1-2" out of a bolt gun. Concentricity is one thing but the manufacturing process by the industry does not give me confidence. The flip side to that is I can do everything correctly and if there's a problem with the ammo there's not a good outcome.
 
Alex,
Sorry I don't have any numbers for you. I've seen a lot of shoddy work and helped to correct the process or spun up new barrels. I never shot any of the bad. Time and circumstances prevented it. Reports are some would take 2-300 rounds to remove metal pushed into the grooves from chambering before they settled down. Others just never shoot well. By that 1-2" out of a bolt gun. Concentricity is one thing but the manufacturing process by the industry does not give me confidence. The flip side to that is I can do everything correctly and if there's a problem with the ammo there's not a good outcome.
My memory is not worth much any more. I thought I remembered something you posted on this subject. :)
 
It's hard to beat a BesTesT from Brown & Sharpe, but their longest reach stock stylus is 1-7/16, but you can use an Interrapid 2-1/2 stylus if you re-thread to M1.4x0.3. The 0.00005 resolution drops to about 0.000125, but that's still much better than the Interrapid 312b.

ACtC-3fvLRJSaaeP8LXfjSp-J_RJH1_veXoOtbUOirdBKHy9qtFO5yqXU3TCVV-zumgoxgkIqa9LB1I9H6DU_Ismr47KdqDb0LbfrP3sTgG3BM5DmpScZ3buCDPaTcFD98gn7Q54KVtm-mFfJ9nO_VD9F7DzJQ=w1170-h877-no


ACtC-3fpUCRE0KONrCjLt4guYiA-ShihrQ250rTKt9gj74FohbC5Z_PyYeRUBoGmEw7CVwb9PSoWehmmM3CXjknYEj-LxWsXnWJaE-rDpwSZh5oLRc0WxBSWaebrgBO_4dW4aEd_bs_pB8Y60KELOzY4emY3OQ=w1186-h877-no
 
This is where things get funny. Take away the marks between the lines and it only a .0001" resolution. Put them back and its .00005". The indicator is no more accurate. And a .0001" indicator at 1/2" with a 2.5" long interapid stylus on it is no benefit. Until you use a real interapid and see the huge gaps between the delineations you don't know what your missing. I have mititoyo, starrett, brown & sharpe, best test, ext. I only use my interapids for dialing barrels.
 
My Brown & Sharpe Test indicator 599-7033-3 0.00005 has a 1½" dial face same my Interapid 312-15 .0005 2½" needle. I find the Brown & Sharpe harder to read and don't use much at all.
Chet
 
Last edited:
interapid 312B-15 long styles is the best for dialing barrels. I’m not as good as Alex wheeler but I’ve had the best results from dialing in as long as it will reach and the breach. Throats are cut square and even. It takes practice to learn how to use it but it’s direct reading off the bore/groove no stacked tolerances from bushings or range rods.
 
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