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Flame Annealing vs AMP

Is there any (statistically significant) data that shows that AMP annealers are producing better groups than a flame annealing system?

I'm not particular interested in informal tests which show 1 group with X annealed brass and 1 group with Y annealed brass.
Depends on what you call accuracy. Serious short range BR competitors are trying to shoot 25 shot aggregates well under 0.250". Most of us couldn't shoot that good no matter how much we practice and how much money we put into our equipment. There are so many variables all jumbled together that it's difficult to see the affect of one. You might see a difference with one barrel but not another? Don't know anything about long distance shooting. Without revisiting the AMPS website I believe they determined an ideal neck hardness by shooting one rifle. I think it amounts to do what you feel is benificial and you are willing to do even if you cannot prove it helps. Getting too nit picking takes the fun out of it. If you really want to be competitive at big matches and after a few years of trying without sucess your wasting your time. You need to shoot just for fun. In Tony Boyers book he says a lot of guys buy the best equipment and practice a lot. After 2-3 years they know they cannot even come close to being competitive so they quit the sport. Personal skills win matches. There is a list of maybe 20-30 shooters in the nation that are always expected to be at the top at any match.
 
FWIW in AMPs own research (I can't find the exact article, but I'm 100% confident it's there) they basically say that in their testing, a properly configured flame annealer will do as good of a job as an induction annealer.

I say that as an owner and user of an AMP.

Edit: I also can't see a difference on target; I can see a difference on the bench. If mine died today, I'd probably buy another one.
 
In Tony Boyers book he says a lot of guys buy the best equipment and practice a lot. After 2-3 years they know they cannot even come close to being competitive so they quit the sport. Personal skills win matches. There is a list of maybe 20-30 shooters in the nation that are always expected to be at the top at any match.
Same with F class. There are three or four people that always score 595 - 600 aggregates every match they show up at no matter what the conditions are. They could shoot in a hurricane and get better scores than most of us could shoot in a tunnel. I shoot for fun and doubt I will ever reach that level no matter how much money I may dump into my equipment.

Still the industry depends on those who try and buy their scores so it takes all kinds
 
Several people have converted the small bottle hose to connect to a bulk propane tank with regulator. Actually pretty simple to do.
That is good input.

Yes, a flame can be trickier to set up and if you don't upgrade to a larger tank and regulator, you may find yourself having to babysit the valve several times during a long session.

With a big tank and regulator, I can run several thousand cases over a Giraud for example, and only set the flame up at the start of the session.

The hopper feed style of the Giraud and some others is low tech and simple. You basically stack brass and then you can relax while the machine runs. The AMP also has an option for an autofeed, but it is also complex and not cheap. I still recommend the autofeed in order to automate the whole process, but I am sympathetic to the sticker shock.

That said, I completely agree with the posts that point out that the AMP is literally just button pushing that doesn't take as much skill or experience to set. You still need to be carful that the brass doesn't have too much variation, but that goes without saying. The AMP does not run closed loop. Change the brass characteristics, and you have to tweak the settings with the AZTEC run.
 
Several people have converted the small bottle hose to connect to a bulk propane tank with regulator. Actually pretty simple to do.
In another thread I talked about having adding a two-stage regulator to my gas grill in order to create a more consistent temperature and how that would be applicable to a "flame-style" annealer. I have not done that on mine because just adjusting the flame "cone" with the valve seems to work fine.
 
@wkdickinson Mine will change within the first few minutes and then again after about 15 or 20 more, if I am running with just the small bottle.
It could be I'm running longer batches, or maybe my valve isn't very good, but without the regulator and big tanks, I didn't get lucky.
 
I've been using a Bench Source for about 10 years. The nozzles make a difference too in the flame. I've been happy with mine.
I do it in the garage away from combustible crap. Consistancy is the key to the flame type annealers
 
@wkdickinson Mine will change within the first few minutes and then again after about 15 or 20 more, if I am running with just the small bottle.
It could be I'm running longer batches, or maybe my valve isn't very good, but without the regulator and big tanks, I didn't get lucky.
That's interesting! I don't use the really small tanks like you would use on a propane torch, I always use the large size like you use on a camp stove. Also, I think the largest number of cases I have ever done at one time is 100 and I've never had to adjust the flame once I had it set. However, I do think using a regulator, particularly a two-stage regulator would be a huge improvement. That said, I am not sure if a torch will run using a regulator. I know a gas grill does, but they only run at a pressure of about 10-11 inches of water. A propane container is pressurized at about 150 psi, from what I read.
 
A lot of sales hype, I have been annealing for a long time started back with a socket on a drill and a torch. Is the Amp do any better than flame ....no, If done correctly and that can go for both systems. I saw some terrible looking cases come out of and AMP....jim
No doubt that flame is as good as Amp in such experienced hands that can load and shoot the difference. The real quest is how long did it take you to perfect the method?
I don’t think that the Amp end product is any better than proper/consistent use of flame or salt bath. I know that flame is harder to tame. Salt bath is easier to get consistent but I would not recommend it to everyone because of safety issues.
 
A trick a friend gave me is to let your little propane bottle stand in a tray with water when anealing to help with the pressure regulating

Probably warm water. As pressure is drawn from the bottle, it gets colder. Keeping the bottle warmish would prevent cold-induced loss of pressure.
 
I think Erik is busy with a "comparison" between the AMP and his benchsource, hopefully he will have a video about it some time with some info downrange. As said I think if you know what your doing the flame will get you where you need to be and then all you need to sort out is that pesky wind
 
There is a video on YouTube where a guy added a $20 pressure regulator to his Annealeez. He mounted it directly to the torch. He had to remove the check valve in the torch to get it to function. He ended up setting it at 8 psi. I cannot locate the vide but here is the pressure regulator he used.

Here's the propane regulator post. I used his idea, and it works great. Every time I anneal, I record the PSI and motor speed on the dispay. Next setup, it don't change much, if any.
 

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