How would a BR HG fare in a LR FC shooting format?

[MikeMcCasland]

I'll preface this by saying that I have never shot a BR match, and I know dangerously little about BR (SR or LR, score or group). I'm not trying to stir the pot, or start some FC vs BR type thing either. This question is really a byproduct of drinking too much coffee this morning.

Hypothetically though, if you were to take an LR BR gun (let's say something that today would qualify for HG), and allowed it to compete in F-Open at 1,000 yards (as-is without having to conform to F-Open equipment restrictions, and shooting from a bench), how would one reasonably expect the BR gun to perform with 20rd strings, and 7 second delays between shots?

For reference, X-Ring is 5", and 10-ring is 10". 20 shots for record with unlimited sighters, and you get ~30 minutes block time to shoot your sighters and record rounds.

Let's assume no cleaning between matches (so you'll be firing a total of 60 rounds for score, with unlimited sighters), and you're confined to loading for the match ahead of time.

Would you expect most top BR guys/guns to be cleaning the target?

Conversely, any of you F-Open guys ever try and run your rig in an LR BR match? How did it agg?

 

[swd]

It’s all up to how well you read wind. And you’d better be darn good at it for a small cartridge such as a BRA to beat a 284 on a windy day,

 

[jackieschmidt]

If both the BR HG and the F Open are chambered in a round that is suitable for 1000 yard shooting, then things should be surprisingly equal. The 7 second delay between shots is the huge equalizer, as I would think a well put together F Open would be just as accurate as a BR rig.
Much of a 1000 Yard Benchrest set up is designed around being able to shoot extremely fast in favorable conditions. Even sighters can become a moot point if you can’t see the shots. Take that away and condition reading becomes the predominate factor.

I have seen, more than once, a shooter win an Unlimited 200 yard against true return to battery Rail Guns with a Bag Gun, once with a NBRSA legal Light Varmint. It takes skill.

 

[INTJ]

I have never shot F-Class, only LR BR. My biggest concern would be the ergonomics of an LR BR rifle, which is optimized to shoot from the bench, vs an F-Class rifle that is optimized to shoot from prone. Shooting from prone is not comfortable for me anyway, and I am concerned that a rifle not designed to be shot from prone might make that worse.

I don't know if the dual port feature of an LR BR is any advantage in F-Class. That said, I could see someone having one barreled action in say 300 WSM, 7 SAUM, or 6.5 x 284--common LR BR HG cartridges, and two different stocks.

Like @jackieschmidt mentioned the way to get small groups at long range is to run them fast, and when running fast the lesser recoil 6 BR variants have an edge in average to good conditions. That edge is eliminated if you have to wait 7 sec per shot, so it would make sense to use the larger common HG BR cartridges. The reason the larger cartridges work in an HG is because it's made heavy enough to recoil similar to a 17 on LG in 6 BRA, so the HGs can be run as fast.

I haven't seen anyone clean in the middle of an LR BR match in a very long time. We usually shoot 70-75 match rounds without cleaning. Most of these rifles will still shoot very small groups up to 100 rounds between cleanings--I haven't tried any more than that.

During the sighter period before each record group, LR BR winds up shooting like F Class--after each shot the target is pulled and spotted. The whole purpose of that sighted period is to figure out the wind. LR BR competes for both group and score, though the focus is more on group. A moderately tuned rifle and a mediocre shooter can still shoot high scores on the 3" ish X-ring and whatever the 10-ring is (7"?) at 1000 yds, but only a well tuned rifle and a good shooter can shoot small groups consistently.

Given the sighter period and wind reading needed for BR, an F-Class match for an LR BR shooter wouldn't be completely new, though I personally wouldn't like shooting from prone for that long.

I know there are shooters who compete in both disciplines, maybe one of those guys will chime in.

 

[boltman13]

I compete in Mid Range F-Open and 600 yd IBF BR at the same Club on parallel ranges on different times. I just made Master Classification in F-Open and have shot a few HM scores. I have a personal best 48-3X score and 4.445" group which is about all that rifle is capable of. I have never come close to winning a group agg. and have only won one score agg ever. Neither of my rifles are set up to facilitate very rapid shooting, although I can shoot quicker than every 7 seconds if I get a stable condition. I find I tend to try to score higher instead of shooting the smallest group. As others have already said the lack of seeing your bullet holes does enter into how you shoot, even more so at 1,000 yds. I would think a good LR Bench Gun and a good LR BR shooter could be very competitive going prone if they chose, in reasonable conditions, but in really nasty wind the typical 6mm bullet makes wind reading more challenging.

 

[INTJ]

I compete in Mid Range F-Open and 600 yd IBF BR at the same Club on parallel ranges on different times. I just made Master Classification in F-Open and have shot a few HM scores. I have a personal best 48-3X score and 4.445" group which is about all that rifle is capable of. I have never come close to winning a group agg. and have only won one score agg ever. Neither of my rifles are set up to facilitate very rapid shooting, although I can shoot quicker than every 7 seconds if I get a stable condition. I find I tend to try to score higher instead of shooting the smallest group. As others have already said the lack of seeing your bullet holes does enter into how you shoot, even more so at 1,000 yds. I would think a good LR Bench Gun and a good LR BR shooter could be very competitive going prone if they chose, in reasonable conditions, but in really nasty wind the typical 6mm bullet makes wind reading more challenging.

I wouldn't bring my 6mm LR BR rifles to an F-Class match. It would be the 300s.......

Is also spend less time tuning and more time shooting slowly in windy conditions.

 

[swd]

I have never shot F-Class, only LR BR. My biggest concern would be the ergonomics of an LR BR rifle, which is optimized to shoot from the bench, vs an F-Class rifle that is optimized to shoot from prone. Shooting from prone is not comfortable for me anyway, and I am concerned that a rifle not designed to be shot from prone might make that worse.

I don't know if the dual port feature of an LR BR is any advantage in F-Class. That said, I could see someone having one barreled action in say 300 WSM, 7 SAUM, or 6.5 x 284--common LR BR HG cartridges, and two different stocks.

A lot of us Open shooters use 3" benchrest stocks. An adjustable cheek is is optional. More than a few of us float their head without touching the stock. About the only thing that helps with prone shooting is an adjustable butt plate to have the pad hit your shoulder comfortably.

Single or dual port is the shooters personal preference. A single port on the same side of the bolt is the most common but dual port and opposite side load/eject is still plenty common. An ejector or not is about 50/50.

Other than we usually shoot longer barrels, 30"-32" and are limited to a 3" forend and 22lbs there's not much and sometimes no difference between a Heavy BR rifle and an F Open rifle.

 

[riflewoman]

Given the scenario from the OP, I would NOT expect a BR shooter to clean the target unless he got lucky. The wind at 1000 is a great equalizer. There’s a LOT of nuance in reading the wind and a lot of change can happen between shots. Even with a 6.5 or 7mm “Wonder bullet” the odds are a small change will be missed. It doesn’t take much for a 1/2 minute change in wind to put you out of the ten ring that small. And while a BR gun might shoot a .25 MOA group for 5 shots or even 10 pretty regularly, when the groups are 20 shots they get bigger. An FCLass shooter has dealt with all of this so my bet would be on the F Class guy to get the higher score.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Appreciate the replies!

I wasn't worried so much about the shooter or their wind reading ability; I was really more curious about how much the BR HGs performance vs. and F-Class rifle was attributable to the match format vs. rifle/cartridge/rest configs.

i.e. is an F-Open gun basically a BR HG rifle that just has to shoot long strings with delays between shots?

There's gotta be someone out there who's agg'ed their F-Open rigs in LR BR. I guess for them it would come down to ROF and their overall gun handling ability with a .284/300WSM vs. you guys running dashers.

 

[INTJ]

Given the scenario from the OP, I would NOT expect a BR shooter to clean the target unless he got lucky. The wind at 1000 is a great equalizer. There’s a LOT of nuance in reading the wind and a lot of change can happen between shots. Even with a 6.5 or 7mm “Wonder bullet” the odds are a small change will be missed. It doesn’t take much for a 1/2 minute change in wind to put you out of the ten ring that small. And while a BR gun might shoot a .25 MOA group for 5 shots or even 10 pretty regularly, when the groups are 20 shots they get bigger. An FCLass shooter has dealt with all of this so my bet would be on the F Class guy to get the higher score.

You must be a Highpower shooter.

LR BR competitors frequently shoot 50s and 100s shot on a 7" 10-ring and 3" X-ring at 1000 yds. That alone requires well-developed wind reading skills. More critically, shooting those 1/4 minute groups requires even more precise wind reading.

While anyone can get lucky and shoot one good group, shooting, three or six or 12 requires a well-tuned rifle, very consistent gun handling, and very good wind reading ability. Last time I checked, tuning, consistent gun handling, and wind reading are what F-Class shooters do.

While I would bet against the LR BR guy on his first F-Class match, I would also bet against the F-Class guy in his first LR BR match.........regardless of what equipment is being used.

The bottom line is it would not take much time for either shooter to learn the other discipline and do well. There are many shooters who have done that.

 

[Keith Faller]

Blaine I think you missed the 20 shots part. We only shoot 5 or 10 shots over a minute or two to try and get finished before conditions change and we know they usually do between last sighter and start of group 30 seconds to a minute later. However I do think you are correct that after a few matches either shooter should improve quickly for that type of shooting.

 

[Keith Faller]

I'll preface this by saying that I have never shot a BR match, and I know dangerously little about BR (SR or LR, score or group). I'm not trying to stir the pot, or start some FC vs BR type thing either. This question is really a biproduct of drinking too much coffee this morning.

Hypothetically though, if you were to take an LR BR gun (let's say something that today would qualify for HG), and allowed it to compete in F-Open at 1,000 yards (as-is without having to conform to F-Open equipment restrictions, and shooting from a bench), how would one reasonably expect the BR gun to perform with 20rd strings, and 7 second delays between shots?

For reference, X-Ring is 5", and 10-ring is 10". 20 shots for record with unlimited sighters, and you get ~30 minutes block time to shoot your sighters and record rounds.

Let's assume no cleaning between matches (so you'll be firing a total of 60 rounds for score, with unlimited sighters), and you're confined to loading for the match ahead of time.

Would you expect most top BR guys/guns to be cleaning the target?

Conversely, any of you F-Open guys ever try and run your rig in an LR BR match? How did it agg?

Mike life has delt me a new deck of cards and looks like I’ll be in the Dallas area soon with some long range br rifles. I don’t see any long range benchrest in Texas but looking forward to maybe traveling to Memphis and Missouri for some matches.
Going to be looking for a place to practice and tune if you know of any. My first long range match was a fun match shooting f-class from a bench and really enjoyed it, might have to try some tummy shootin for a change. Maybe we can test your questions and see what happens

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Mike life has delt me a new deck of cards and looks like I’ll be in the Dallas area soon with some long range br rifles. I don’t see any long range benchrest in Texas but looking forward to maybe traveling to Memphis and Missouri for some matches.
Going to be looking for a place to practice and tune if you know of any. My first long range match was a fun match shooting f-class from a bench and really enjoyed it, might have to try some tummy shootin for a change. Maybe we can test your questions and see what happens

Tummy Shootin... I'm stealing that. That's hilarious.

Welcome to Texas! You're gonna love it.

As you mentioned, there isn't much of an LR-BR scene in Texas (none that I'm aware of anyway).

There are 1,000 yard ranges near the DFW area, but most are setup for PRS/Steel type stuff; the only one I've ever shot there was "Triple C" out in Cresson. It's a great range for its target audience, but its not a place I would expect a serious BR shooter to enjoy (Shooting F-Class guns there wasn't much fun). Hopefully some of the other members can chime in with recommendations; my guess is a lot of LR shooting around that area takes place on private land.

There's 1,000 yard F-Class down in Houston (Bayou) and out in Midland (West Texas Long Range); also out in Shreveport LA (Long Range Alley). Come on out whenever you get settled in; I'd love to see how the BR guns do.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[INTJ]

Blaine I think you missed the 20 shots part. We only shoot 5 or 10 shots over a minute or two to try and get finished before conditions change and we know they usually do between last sighter and start of group 30 seconds to a minute later. However I do think you are correct that after a few matches either shooter should improve quickly for that type of shooting.

I did not miss the 20 shots part. If your talking all 20 shots into a BR 10 ring, then yes, that would be hard. However, we frequently see the combined total of sighters and record groups that would all fit into an F-Class 10-Ring.

My point is that changing disciplines would not be a huge deal between F-Class and LR BR. The skills required for each discipline are very similar, and a competitor from either would quickly adapt to the other.

In other words, you will soon be a top F-Class shooter just like you are a top LR BR shooter now.....

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Both rifles can be built to the same accuracy potential. The only real difference I can see would be that shooter fatigue would be less on the bench than prone, and the HG could be really heavy and use a brake so shooting a 300 WSM would be much easier. The only reason a 300 WSM does not dominate F-Open is handling the recoil IMO. I believe the 300 WSM has a slight accuracy and ballistic advantage.

 

[Keith Faller]

Tummy Shootin... I'm stealing that. That's hilarious.

Welcome to Texas! You're gonna love it.

As you mentioned, there isn't much of an LR-BR scene in Texas (none that I'm aware of anyway).

There are 1,000 yard ranges near the DFW area, but most are setup for PRS/Steel type stuff; the only one I've ever shot there was "Triple C" out in Cresson. It's a great range for its target audience, but its not a place I would expect a serious BR shooter to enjoy (Shooting F-Class guns there wasn't much fun). Hopefully some of the other members can chime in with recommendations; my guess is a lot of LR shooting around that area takes place on private land.

There's 1,000 yard F-Class down in Houston (Bayou) and out in Midland (West Texas Long Range); also out in Shreveport LA (Long Range Alley). Come on out whenever you get settled in; I'd love to see how the BR guns do.

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks mike hope to see you at a match sometime in the near future

 

[Ned Ludd]

Appreciate the replies!

I wasn't worried so much about the shooter or their wind reading ability; I was really more curious about how much the BR HGs performance vs. and F-Class rifle was attributable to the match format vs. rifle/cartridge/rest configs.

i.e. is an F-Open gun basically a BR HG rifle that just has to shoot long strings with delays between shots?

There's gotta be someone out there who's agg'ed their F-Open rigs in LR BR. I guess for them it would come down to ROF and their overall gun handling ability with a .284/300WSM vs. you guys running dashers.

I believe David Gosnell has used his F-Open rifle in a few BR matches and done reasonably well. As others have noted, there are distinct differences between the two disciplines such as the number of shots, total time required, etc., which mean the wind conditions may have a greater effect on shot dispersion during a typical F-Open match. Shooter skills should be a wash as the shooter brings whatever skills they have regardless of the discipline they're shooting, and there are many very fine shooters in both disciplines.

One place where you might see a difference would be in load development. F-Class shooters tend to put perhaps a little more emphasis on developing a load that is resistant to environmental changes and will remain stable during the course of 25+ shots, three matches spaced out over several hours on a given day, and even between different days of a multi-day event. That is the main reason you see F-Class shooters in general using velocity data as an integral part of load development, whereas some BR shooters do, but some consider it less critical. In F-Class, having a load that shoots consistently every time you pull the trigger is at least as important as having one that prints the absolute tiniest grouping possible, perhaps even more so.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The time delay between 20 shots is the equalizer. Both guns should be built to the same level

 

[dthomas]

Long range alley started to have long range bench rest matches. Look on the long range shooters of Louisiana website for information.

 

[INTJ]

I believe David Gosnell has used his F-Open rifle in a few BR matches and done reasonably well. As others have noted, there are distinct differences between the two disciplines such as the number of shots, total time required, etc., which mean the wind conditions may have a greater effect on shot dispersion during a typical F-Open match. Shooter skills should be a wash as the shooter brings whatever skills they have regardless of the discipline they're shooting, and there are many very fine shooters in both disciplines.

One place where you might see a difference would be in load development. F-Class shooters tend to put perhaps a little more emphasis on developing a load that is resistant to environmental changes and will remain stable during the course of 25+ shots, three matches spaced out over several hours on a given day, and even between different days of a multi-day event. That is the main reason you see F-Class shooters in general using velocity data as an integral part of load development, whereas some BR shooters do, but some consider it less critical. In F-Class, having a load that shoots consistently every time you pull the trigger is at least as important as having one that prints the absolute tiniest grouping possible, perhaps even more so.

Consistency is extremely important in LR BR. Shooting one small group doesn't win matches. Shooting consecutive small groups aggs is what wins the group portion. So we keep tuning until the small groups are consistent. We can't accept a pretty good load, it has to be an excellent load.

I think what you are saying is in F-Class, a higher BC bullet that doesn't group quite as well is a better choice. The only reason the low .5 BC bullets do so well in LR BR is because we can shoot fast strings. Fast shooting makes up for a LOT of BC and lower BC bullets consistently group better. Years ago when we didn't shoot fast strings in LR BR we did use higher BC bullets.

So I think the LR BR guy shooting his first F-Class match would want to find a tune for a higher BC bullet that wouldn't be as affected by the long shot strings.